Hi all first post. I joined because I was curious how you guys think the Tuvix episode has aged. Did Janeway do the right thing? Were Tuvok and Neelix dead when Tuvix was alive? I find the morality of this episode challenging.
Tuvix Episode Revisited
- Thread starter Robert Leva
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My opinion is kind of "in the middle".
Were Janeway's actions morally wrong?
Yes, I think so. Tuvix was a living being that Janeway made a decision to destroy. It's indicative of her cult leader power over the crew that no one opposed her, except the Doctor (who being a hologram was bound to his Hippocratic program).
Did Janeway commit murder?
No. Like it or not, Federation law did not extend to certain unprecedented situations. Since the Federation had not yet ruled on the morality or legality of separating a being like Tuvix, Janeway could not be charged with a crime.
Were Janeway's actions morally wrong?
Yes, I think so. Tuvix was a living being that Janeway made a decision to destroy. It's indicative of her cult leader power over the crew that no one opposed her, except the Doctor (who being a hologram was bound to his Hippocratic program).
Did Janeway commit murder?
No. Like it or not, Federation law did not extend to certain unprecedented situations. Since the Federation had not yet ruled on the morality or legality of separating a being like Tuvix, Janeway could not be charged with a crime.
I'm sticking with my original position. Faced with either killing two people (Tuvok and Neelix), or one (Tuvix), surely it would be better to choose the option that causes less harm?
To say otherwise would be to claim that Tuvok and Neelix had no right to their own individual lives. Why should Tuvix's life trump theirs?
The greatest good for the greatest number should be observed. And that would be allowing Tuvok and Neelix to return to their own existences.
To say otherwise would be to claim that Tuvok and Neelix had no right to their own individual lives. Why should Tuvix's life trump theirs?
The greatest good for the greatest number should be observed. And that would be allowing Tuvok and Neelix to return to their own existences.
It's an impossible choice. Whatever Janeways chooses, a life will end. So does she choose the sentient being who is alive standing before her, or the lives of her two friends she has already "lost"?
If it were me, I doubt I would have the capability of killing someone who was begging to not be murdered, regardless of the stakes behind it. I'm not saying Janeway was wrong, or even immoral, but I do not think I could have done the same in her place regardless.
If it were me, I doubt I would have the capability of killing someone who was begging to not be murdered, regardless of the stakes behind it. I'm not saying Janeway was wrong, or even immoral, but I do not think I could have done the same in her place regardless.
On a lighter side, I think the following ending would have been a riot:
(Janeway activates the transporter. Tuvix vanishes. Tuvok and Neelix reappear)
KES: "Neelix!"
NEELIX: "Hello, sweeting."
JANEWAY: "Mr. Tuvok, Mr. Neelix. Good to have you back."
TUVOK: "Thank you, captain. Unfortunately, I must now place you under arrest for the murder of Lieutenant Tuvix."
JANEWAY: "But... I..."
TUVOK (to the guards that Janeway conveniently brought for the "death march" bit): "Please escort Captain Janeway to the brig."
(Janeway activates the transporter. Tuvix vanishes. Tuvok and Neelix reappear)
KES: "Neelix!"
NEELIX: "Hello, sweeting."
JANEWAY: "Mr. Tuvok, Mr. Neelix. Good to have you back."
TUVOK: "Thank you, captain. Unfortunately, I must now place you under arrest for the murder of Lieutenant Tuvix."
JANEWAY: "But... I..."
TUVOK (to the guards that Janeway conveniently brought for the "death march" bit): "Please escort Captain Janeway to the brig."
That would mean that in the reverse case, (two people out of one, e.g. Thomas/Will Riker, Human/Klingon B' Elanna, Good/Evil Kirk) the decision to re-integrate them would be wrong, in principle. Fortunately, the writers always make sure that, for those that are re-integrated (to get a main character back), at least one of them wouldn't survive, otherwise ....
From a moral point of view, an impossible dilemma, yes. But not a problem when taking into account the technology of the transporter that has been shown to be able to spawn duplicates under certain circumstances. I can think of no reason why a solution couldn't be pursued that saved both Tuvok and Neelix and Tuvix (althoug that of course would have given rise to an entirely new slate of problems).
We as viewers weren't given the chance to get emotionally invested in this "Tuvix" fella and really care about him. We just wanted the normal characters back, to bring the narrative back to a comfortable state of equilibrium.
Perhaps Janeway's decision should have had longer-term consequences... as in, the transporter operation at the end doesn't go as planned, and we get Tuvok back safe and sound but Neelix meets an untimely demise.
Kor
Perhaps Janeway's decision should have had longer-term consequences... as in, the transporter operation at the end doesn't go as planned, and we get Tuvok back safe and sound but Neelix meets an untimely demise.
Kor
Of course that's the default assumption when trying to explain away such one-off occurrences. Still, they knew it was possible to duplicate, since they had encountered a purely technological example themselves (B' Elanna split in both a human and a klingon counterpart, the fact that they weren't stable probably would have had more to do with them never being two separate persons in the first place).
One also wonders what happened with the extra mass in the original merger in the first place. Or does Tuvix have the weight of Neelix and Tuvok combined?
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There is so much wrong with the "merger" in question, it's best not to think about it. For instance, consider that brain function is basically a combination of cellular configuration and electro-chemistry. If either is altered even by a small amount (and being scrambled with another being would do just that), you don't get new life, you get brain death. Tuvix should have collapsed dead on the transporter pad the moment he formed. The Doctor would have pronounced "total synaptic failure" or something.
Ayala becomes security chief and has to start talking regularly. The kitchen is a momentary issue, until B'Elanna gets the idea to reduce ship cruise speed from warp 8 to warp 7.8, adding about 4 years to the ship's projected journey but freeing up more than enough power to run the replicators.
Ayala becomes security chief and has to start talking regularly. The kitchen is a momentary issue, until B'Elanna gets the idea to reduce ship cruise speed from warp 8 to warp 7.8, adding about 4 years to the ship's projected journey but freeing up more than enough power to run the replicators.
Warp 7.6, then. 2 tenths of a warp factor reduction to feed the crew, another 2 tenths of a warp factor to keep up with Janeway's consumption of coffee.
She did commit murder and in the first degree at that. She only got away with it because of preposterousness otherwise she would have been court-martialled and condemned to the worst possible punishment other than death, which seems to be life in a penal colony without parole.
Not so sure it's so clear cut. It reminds me of that trolley dilemma (do nothing, and the trolley will kill 5 people on the track. Flip a handle and the trolley will go to another track, killing only 1 person). The only difference here is that Tuvok and Neelix were already gone, but with the option to get them back, and I'm not sure that's a fundamental difference.
At any rate, I would expect this little incident to be logged, so starfleet HQ would have heard about it after Voyager got home at the latest. Apparently she wasn't courtmartialed, or at least, not found guilty, since we see her again as an admiral.
At any rate, I would expect this little incident to be logged, so starfleet HQ would have heard about it after Voyager got home at the latest. Apparently she wasn't courtmartialed, or at least, not found guilty, since we see her again as an admiral.
We'll say 7.7... even Captain Janeway can only drink so much coffee without going into violent convulsions.
The thing is that Voyager and Star Trek In general are fictions, we don't need to agree with their conclusions to be entertained by them. We must not lose sight of that. Some of the things that we are shown are entertaining yet if applied to real-life truly horrible and detestable. We don't need to agree on what they are but we can always debate it.
IMO, given the impossible facts as presented, I mean mixing two (three actually) DNAs already strain credibility beyond reason but unscramble these DNAs and reconstitute the people goes beyond even that!!! To quote Asimov is it worse than impossible, it's ridiculous.
Anyway, Janeway wasn't given a deadline about the "unscrambling" procedure she could have done it immediately or waited till they came back to the alpha quadrant or anytime in between so her murdering of Tuvix was not only unwarranted but a bit precipitous as if she was afraid that if she waited any longer people would start to argue that there was some merit in letting Tuvix live. That's cowardly.
But the truth is that Voyager hits the reset button at the end of each episode and so we have a different Janeway for each. We may detest this one but maybe we'll like the next one. Who knows?
In beautiful New Zealand. How horrible.
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