Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really work

[polyharmonic]

In the Tuvix episode (as well as many others), we see that the transporter is able to create what is clearly a new sentient being or beings with a new consciousness. But in thinking about this episode, I now realize that this has disturbing implications for Star Trek transporting in general. What if every time you transport, it is creating a duplicate being (kind of like those Demon Planet duplicates except here they are perfect copies) and that the being that was beamed was actually killed!

Transport in Star Trek is not consistently handled. In many episodes, it suggests that a person is scanned during de-materialization, his sub-atomic blueprint stored, and then the transporter essentially replicates you based on this blueprint. But in an episode with Barclay, he consciously experiences transport kind of like we experience riding an elevator. For the sake of coherent discussion then let's ONLY use the Tuvix episode and any others that don't contradict the Tuvix episode suggestion of how transports work.

The Tuvix episode PROVES that the transporter is capable of creating a new consciousness. No one can reasonably argue otherwise. But if the transporter can do this with Tuvix then there is the disturbing implication that the transporter might be doing this all the time which is creating new duplicate beings with new consciousnesses rather than truly transporting individuals!

 

[Anwar]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

The creators said that the Transporters don't kill people.

Of course, that doesn't explain the incredible computing data and energy it would take to take a person apart and then put them back together while keeping the "mind" functioning and conscious the whole time.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

The creators said that the Transporters don't kill people.

Of course, that doesn't explain the incredible computing data and energy it would take to take a person apart and then put them back together while keeping the "mind" functioning and conscious the whole time.

Time Magazine: "How do the Heisenberg compensators work?"
Mike Okuda: "They work just fine, thank you."

Or...
A wizard did it.

Spoiler: Also...

(Tuvix deserved to live!!!!1111!!! )

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

What if every time you transport, it is creating a duplicate being (kind of like those Demon Planet duplicates except here they are perfect copies) and that the being that was beamed was actually killed!

This is essentially what happens, isn't it? "Killed" is such a harsh word.
Of course all the matter in me is recycled afresh every 7-10 years, anyway, right? And we're constantly in motion at the atomic level, and mostly empty space, so maybe the transporter is just an enlargement/accelleration of what is already happening.

. . . .[T]hen there is the disturbing implication that the transporter might be doing this all the time which is creating new duplicate beings with new consciousnesses rather than truly transporting individuals!

I THINK it was in the recent Newsweek article on Trek legacy, someone was saying that rather than trying to beam my dematerialized energy/particles (?) it would be simpler to dematerialize (kill) me and send a beam or something to the destination and use the matter there to reconstitute me. Rather like Genesis. If the new me had the same neurons in the same connections, it shouldn't be a "new consciousness," I think.

Imagine the computing power necessary to remember all the data to reconstitute me! But if there were a pattern buffer or record saved, you could -- in case of any fatal accident -- just use the data to make a new one of me, minus any recent memories of course.

Much like the device in "The Prestige."

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

The creators said that the Transporters don't kill people.

Of course, that doesn't explain the incredible computing data and energy it would take to take a person apart and then put them back together while keeping the "mind" functioning and conscious the whole time.

If by creators you mean the creators of Star Trek and they said it and that's that then obviously we can't have an interesting conversation if that's going to be people's take on this subject. But my point in starting this thread isn't to discuss "canonocity" as much as have a philosophical discussion so let's sidestep that for a moment. And when it comes to stuff like this the creators aren't consistent.

If however you mean creators as in the inventors of transports, then a more interesting question comes up. How would anyone be able to prove that the transporter is actually transporting people rather than creating duplicates?

Remember the Demon Class Planet and the Voyager duplicates? Only because they weren't perfect duplicates and the originals were still around was it clear to them and us and others that they were duplicates. But what if transporters really created duplicates like the Demon Class Planet silver blood creatures? Except here they are perfect duplicates and the original is conveniently destroyed at the other end of the transporter.

The duplicates wouldn't be able to tell. Others wouldn't be able to tell. The original person is dead and can't tell people either. Yet if we use the Tuvix episode as our main source of discussion and ignore others, we would have to conclude that this is a strong POSSIBILITY.

And as far as being conscious and actually experiencing going through transportation, I only know of the Barclay episode that shows this. Many other episodes contradict this because we see people being held in "transport buffers" and presumably in a stasis-like condition (or that they are actually dead and only their blueprints for replicating them remains) and rematerializing a long time later. Therefore for the purposes of discussion let's ignore that Barclay episode.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Meh. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

So what if you're a clone? Your original is gone and you're exactly the same as you were before.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Meh. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

So what if you're a clone? Your original is gone and you're exactly the same as you were before.

But unless absolutely necessariy, would you willingly consent to being duplicated and killed? If not then you cannot say that being killed "makes no difference". It does make a difference. You're dead.

I might be wrong but if this were clearly a strong possibility, I think 99% of people would take shuttles down to the planet surface rather than kill themselves to let their duplicates take their place just to save time. That is unless it was so time critical to get down there that self-sacrifice was called for.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

If the timeframe was TOS or later and I was told that in order to be a part of Starfleet and see the universe I'd have to suck up and deal with a machine which by the time of TOS is considered pretty reliable (under normal conditions) and to all outward appearances beamed me to distant locations, I'd like to think I'd be fine with it.

Now if we're talking the timeframe of ENT, where it's still being billed as a new technology....that's different.

I wonder whether people faced the same uncertainties when confronted with airplanes for the first time. Or travelling by sea beyond the horizon.

Really, in any situation where we aren't in constant contact with someone, how do we know they haven't been replaced with a duplicate?

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Meh. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

So what if you're a clone? Your original is gone and you're exactly the same as you were before.

But unless absolutely necessariy, would you willingly consent to being duplicated and killed?

Yes. If a being exactly like me with my memories exists, I wasn't "killed."

Ten years from now, the material in "you" will be all new compared to what you are made of now. Does that mean the present "you" died a slow death and the "you" now was "killed"? (Maybe it actually DOES in some sense, but no one thinks of it that way.)

"I" am actually a pattern put into physical being from moment to moment by whirling electrons; from day to day by cells dying off and new ones being born; and from decade to decade by different molecules of matter being utilized by those cells.

Our whole life is one long transport.

 

[propita]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Well, you can't forget the extra Kirk and the extra Riker.

Now, Kirk was "reconstituted" but "Thomas" Riker was allowed to live. Obviously, Will Riker wasn't split in half (though Kirk's personality was)--but as the OP discussed, "Thomas" would be the creation of a new consciousness. A copy, yes, but creation of another from--well, modeled on Will but Will was in one piece. So I guess creation from...nothing.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

But unless absolutely necessariy, would you willingly consent to being duplicated and killed?

Yes. If a being exactly like me with my memories exists, I wasn't "killed."

From the POV of everyone else, no. That is unless other people realize or believe that your duplicate is not the original you and mourns the fact that your original you is actually dead. And speaking just from your own POV yes you are killed. It would be no different than if you were shot and killed. It's just that a duplicate would continue on in your stead.

Let's change this up a bit. Let's say I come up to you and offer to make a perfect duplicate. But in order to do that I would have to kill you first by dissecting your brain in order to extract all your memories and such. In such a scenario would you (and certainly the vast majority of people) be willing to undergo such a procedure as nonchalantly as riding an airplane or elevator?

I'm sure a very small percentage would say, "if he is a perfect copy and no one can tell then what's the difference". But the vast majority would say, "NO! I don't want to die even if my duplicate can take over for me."

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

But in the world portrayed in Star Trek going through the transporter _is_ done as nonchalantly as riding an airplane or elevator.

 

[Destructor]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

I would never in a million years get into a transporter. As far as I'm concerned, it IS the device from The Prestige, and it would kill me. No-one else would know, of course, but I'd still be dead.

 

[plynch]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

But unless absolutely necessariy, would you willingly consent to being duplicated and killed?

Yes. If a being exactly like me with my memories exists, I wasn't "killed."

From the POV of everyone else, no. That is unless other people realize or believe that your duplicate is not the original you and mourns the fact that your original you is actually dead. And speaking just from your own POV yes you are killed. It would be no different than if you were shot and killed. It's just that a duplicate would continue on in your stead.

Let's change this up a bit. Let's say I come up to you and offer to make a perfect duplicate. But in order to do that I would have to kill you first by dissecting your brain in order to extract all your memories and such. In such a scenario would you (and certainly the vast majority of people) be willing to undergo such a procedure as nonchalantly as riding an airplane or elevator?

I'm sure a very small percentage would say, "if he is a perfect copy and no one can tell then what's the difference". But the vast majority would say, "NO! I don't want to die even if my duplicate can take over for me."

I would want there to be some advantage to it, like getting to another planet, but if it were a reliable procedure, why not? I hope no one would mourn. If they get an exact me with the same memories, strengths, and faults, it IS me.

Not trying to be argumentative, just lettin' ya know where I'm at. I think - as I understand the transporter - even if the person's original matter is somehow beamed (as opposed to the "easier" method of using rdifferent matter at the terminal point, a la Genesis), they are "dying" each time. After the beam-in you're looking at a clone with all the original's memory.

 

[Jeri]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

And as far as being conscious and actually experiencing going through transportation, I only know of the Barclay episode that shows this...

Kirk et al were beamed out of the Genesis cave in TWoK -- having a conversation before, during and after they materialized and walked off the transporter pads.

Anyone interested in this discussion can see one started June 27 in the Trek XI forum: Transports in New Trek

 

[Navaros]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Meh. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

So what if you're a clone? Your original is gone and you're exactly the same as you were before.

It would make the difference in terms of your soul being elsewhere instead of still in the body where it is supposed to be, and an entirely different soul living as you.

Of course, with Tuvix the question of what happened to Tuvok/Neelix/Tuvix's souls is conveniently swept under the rug rather than addressed like it should have been.

I do not believe that the Tuvix situation can be applied to transporter usage in general, as that would cause a far more widespread issue about people's souls that would have undoubtedly been addressed on-screen numerous times if the OP's theory that transporters 'kill you' every time was correct.

 

[Destructor]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

If they get an exact me with the same memories, strengths, and faults, it IS me.

So you are saying that if you were attacked by a clone that precisely mimicked you down to the last detail, you'd let it win the fight and kill you on the grounds that once you were dead there would be a copy of you so you'd still be alive?

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Where in the episode did they say that Neelix and Tuvok died during transport? Forgive me, if I'm wrong, I haven't seen the episode in quite some time, but I HAVE seen it very often nonetheless.

The way I understand the process that happened there is, that the transporter actually merged the matter and consciousness of them both.
Normally, nobody could survive something like that, of course.
In this case, Tuvix must have been a superdense being and instead of having some kind of split personality where Tuvok and Neelix could mentally talk with each other, teir thought patterns merged also.
Imagine their thoughts as colours. Tuvok's blue and Neelix yellow, throw them together you get green.
The trick in this episode was the strange plant. It worked as the catalyst to make this happen and must also have some exotic capabilities to work as a link between Tuvok's molecules and Neelix'.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

Meh. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

So what if you're a clone? Your original is gone and you're exactly the same as you were before.

It would make the difference in terms of your soul being elsewhere instead of still in the body where it is supposed to be, and an entirely different soul living as you.

Of course, with Tuvix the question of what happened to Tuvok/Neelix/Tuvix's souls is conveniently swept under the rug rather than addressed like it should have been.

I do not believe that the Tuvix situation can be applied to transporter usage in general, as that would cause a far more widespread issue about people's souls that would have undoubtedly been addressed on-screen numerous times if the OP's theory that transporters 'kill you' every time was correct.

Being agnostic, and not being closed to the possibility that if souls exist they can be transferred between bodies (particularly between completely identical bodies), the soul argument doesn't really get far with me.

In any case, if you're worried that the transporter actually kills you, would being told, 'Oh no, it just "moves" your matter to a distant location," _really_ reassure you?

 

[DonIago]

Re: Tuvix and its disturbing implications for how transports really wo

If they get an exact me with the same memories, strengths, and faults, it IS me.

So you are saying that if you were attacked by a clone that precisely mimicked you down to the last detail, you'd let it win the fight and kill you on the grounds that once you were dead there would be a copy of you so you'd still be alive?

Doesn't that argument go both ways? If I'm willing to let my clone kill me, shouldn't my clone, if it is identical, be willing to let me kill it? Hell, if we're identical, then why did my clone suddenly attack me when I wasn't inclined to attack it?