TUC - not aged well

[FormerLurker]

I do think a bigger budget would have made TUC better in terms of a larger sense of scale. Bigger sets, new model ships, fleets instead of single ships, higher quality film in the cameras...


You are right about the cold war parallel, of course, but there were also some overt references to racism:

• Chekov's line "Guess who's coming to dinner?" is a reference to a 1960s film about a black man coming to dinner with a white family.
• The Klingon woman has the line " 'Human rights.' Why, the very name is racist. The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club."
• A nameless Enterprise crewman says of Klingons "What about that smell? You know only the top-of-the-line models can even talk..."
• Uhura says "Did you see the way they ate?", and later admits "I felt like Lieutenant Valeris", i.e. prejudiced against Klingons.

Thing is, each instance of what you're calling overt racism can be traced back to middle America's reaction to the Soviets, and their reaction right back at us.

For instance, Soviet bloc athletes at the Olympics were routinely called machines, robots, etc., which falls directly in line with the "top of the line models" line. Complaining about table manners can be compared directly to our interpretation of certain social mores they exhibited(and still do today, at that). Azetbur's complaint about the 'homo sapiens only club' correlates with how Soviet citizens interpreted how they were characterized and treated in the U.S. I remember in high school in the early '80s it being said "there are more teachers of English in the Soviet Union than there are students of Russian in the U.S." This wasn't far off. And very little of it is actually related to race, so much as it is fear and loathing of the 'other'. We just interpret it that way in hindsight.

 

[eyeresist]

I think you've really misinterpreted everything to fit your theory. "Guess who's coming to dinner" is a reference that overtly indicates a racist context (any educated person of the time would have got the message). Same with the Klingon who actually accuses the Federation of being racist. Saying that they smell, and most of them are too stupid to talk, is obviously racist. There's no indication that the Klingons are being called machine-like, but rather the opposite - they are primitive and animalistic (according to the racist view).

 

[Timo]

Now that sounds like taking the analogy to excessive accuracy. US-Russian relations were fundamentally racist, as described above; what's wrong with portraying that through classic examples of other racism familiar to the US audiences?

The preponderance of Meyerisms in the movie come from the Cold War, rather than from the Civil War. But mixing your metaphors well is only welcome when you want to serve scifi for dinner.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DarKush]

TNG Klingons, like Worf, were not very bright, everything they did seemed reactionary; and they shout a personal cultural code of ethics for whatever they did. They came off as overblown punks who's bark was tougher than their bite. Kruge's retarded band of Klingons could've been the source, but I'd like to give credit solely to Moore in ruining the Klingons and also sh*tting all over Captain Kirk.

While I don't agree that the 24th century Klingons ( and Kruge) were dumb (House of Duras and Gowron were cunning for example), I do concede that their bark was worse than their bite. Even when DS9 had the Federation-Klingon War the Klingons weren't that tough. Granted that might have been because of budget constraints or a reluctance to have a full scale war before the Dominion War, but I wish that the Klingons had really cut loose and we had seen them do so, more than that one time with Jake and Bashir on that planet. Though the Axanar fan film is getting slammed and likely won't ever be finished, "Prelude to Axanar" at least showed some kickass Klingon action, even if it was just in ship battles. The only time in the TNG era that you got something like that was in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

I do have to wonder if maybe the Klingon Civil War in TNG weakened the Klingons a great deal so they couldn't really go at the Federation during their brief war.

I also have to wonder though if an overall weakened Klingon Empire (compared to TOS) kept the alliance with the Federation going, because if they were really strong they might not have allied with the Federation or continued the alliance since Undiscovered Country.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The preponderance of Meyerisms in the movie come from the Cold War, rather than from the Civil War.

Except for Gorkon being made up to look like a Klingon Abraham Lincoln.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I think you've really misinterpreted everything to fit your theory. "Guess who's coming to dinner" is a reference that overtly indicates a racist context (any educated person of the time would have got the message). Same with the Klingon who actually accuses the Federation of being racist. Saying that they smell, and most of them are too stupid to talk, is obviously racist. There's no indication that the Klingons are being called machine-like, but rather the opposite - they are primitive and animalistic (according to the racist view).

Bravo, someone understood the movie's obvious themes. It's another reason why the story was good, but Kirk's revelation with McCoy I found a little forced on the Penal colony.
TNG did a nice story with Riker being the first officer of a Klingon vessel, thinking Klingons were more like Worf, but realizing Klingons actually have personality unlike Worf. Those people were not the Klingons I loved from TOS, but there's a scene where the character or our protagonist, Riker, learned something from that episode he didn't know before. He was enlightened; it was something I wanted from Kirk.

 

[DarKush]

The more I thought about my previous post it's not like the TOS Klingons necessarily had a bigger bite than bark either. There was one brief war and then a contest for hearts and minds, IMO, but we never really saw the Klingons cut loose against the Federation. We actually saw more of that on DS9 than ever on TOS, including the movies. In the films Kruge and Klaa were renegades. And Chang was acting against the wishes of the legitimate Klingon government.

Also the seeds of the 24th century Klingons' martial ways could perhaps be seen in Kor's wistfulness for the missed opportunity for war in "Errand of Mercy." Perhaps Moore just took what he saw on TOS and built on it.

Though perhaps the ENT episode "Judgment" was a critique on 24th century Klingons, with the advocate lamenting the desire of the younger generation to be warriors. Though some of the lack of development could also be the case that the Starfleet crews interacted with only a slice of Klingons at a time, generally their military officers.

 

[eyeresist]

Though perhaps the ENT episode "Judgment" was a critique on 24th century Klingons, with the advocate lamenting the desire of the younger generation to be warriors. Though some of the lack of development could also be the case that the Starfleet crews interacted with only a slice of Klingons at a time, generally their military officers.

One good thing about that episode was that it made the point that Klingon society does contain non-warriors, without which of course it could not function.

 

[Maurice]

Though the Axanar fan film is getting slammed and likely won't ever be finished, "Prelude to Axanar" at least showed some kickass Klingon action, even if it was just in ship battles.

Ships lumbering around at city traffic speeds firing torpedoes which would get passed by Audis on the autobahn do not qualify as "kickass" to me.

 

[fireproof78]

One good thing about that episode was that it made the point that Klingon society does contain non-warriors, without which of course it could not function.

Precisely so. This is a good point, and something that Trek often misses. The idea that societies are monolithic is common trope, especially in science fiction, mostly because it is easier to write.

 

[eyeresist]

Precisely so. This is a good point, and something that Trek often misses. The idea that societies are not monolithic is common trope, especially in science fiction, mostly because it is easier to write.

"We are the people of the planet where it rains ALL THE TIME, and we are all obsessed with cheesecake. Would you like some cheesecake? Sorry it's so damp."


(P.S. You'd probably want to remove that "not" from your post.)

 

[fireproof78]

Thank you.
That's what happens when you shift thoughts mid sentence.

 

[DarKush]

Ships lumbering around at city traffic speeds firing torpedoes which would get passed by Audis on the autobahn do not qualify as "kickass" to me.

To each its own, but I thought Prelude did a good job of showing how formidable the Klingons are. I wish the film had been made so I could see more of the Four Years War in full.

 

[fireproof78]

To each its own, but I thought Prelude did a good job of showing how formidable the Klingons are. I wish the film had been made so I could see more of the Four Years War in full.

I thought it was ok, but I didn't feel like it showed anything different than had already been seen on screen. Not that I didn't want to see more, but I didn't feel like it was unique either.

 

[DarKush]

^
Fair enough, but for a fan film, and an introduction to the Axanar universe I thought it did a great job. I thought the production values were very good as was the casting. It sucks that we won't get to see the finished results.

 

[Romo Lampkin]

I watched this last night, it hasn't dated at all. The effects are still good for the most part (note it's of the era of practical effects, not 21st century CG blandness) and the message will always be relevant as long as the human species proves incapable of advancing beyond imperial/national/political rivalries/internecine disputes. The racism aspect is clearly to show how both the Fed and The Klingons have an historically informed mutual hatred of each other which bolsters the theme of reconciliation. This could apply not only to the USA/USSR but to Israel/Palestine, in fact anywhere where you've got two cultures at war with each other so there you go, the theme is timeless/universal and pretty honest about how people are going to react in that situation with views like all Klingons are animals or whatever the Klingons said about humans, so it's certainly not dated. They also loathed each other in the original series. And Kirk's son being killed and the rage and resentment he experiences with regards to those racist views is an accurate reflection on the cycle of violence. To say it's dated is to try forcing it to conform to the cultural standards of this particular decade which leave a lot to be desired. I teach Shakespeare and the quoting from plays didn't bother me at all. Furthermore, the script was nicely written with the reflections of Spock and Kirk on the future, age and wisdom. Basically TUC shits all over what passes for Trek movies these days, which is akin to zombie Simpsons, it's not real Trek. In addition I find this 'I don't like this film because it's dated' viewpoint irritating. I mean I can enjoy dated films precisely because they're of an era that's different to this one, I savour the datedness of them, better that than another generic superhero film. For example Roger Moore Bond is dated and brilliant/genius precisely because of that, I actually prefer it over the boring, overly serious new ones. Ditto for Goldeneye, it's stepping back into the mid 90s. Dirty Harry is both dated but very modern, in being so extremely gritty, but the 70s music is awesome, far better than most soundtracks today. TOS is dated but great because of that, it has timeless stories but the 60s cheese is also highly enjoyable. Dated can be good and merely reflects a time period different to our own, not inferior, although I could qualify that a lot but meh, I mean medieval art is a bit shit compared to Renaissance art but it's also a different style so one can appreciate it on its own merits. It's this kind of thinking that will replicated in 20 years when people say the 2010s are dated.

 

[fireproof78]

^
Fair enough, but for a fan film, and an introduction to the Axanar universe I thought it did a great job. I thought the production values were very good as was the casting. It sucks that we won't get to see the finished results.

It did do that well, and gave a good idea of the players and the situation.

But, I felt that the Klingons were presented well enough in TUC, among other episodes, to understand their formidably. In addition, I think TUC presents them with different facets to their culture as well.

 

[DarKush]

^
I don't disagree in terms of how some Klingons were presented in TUC and other Trek episodes regarding how formidable and dangerous they were, though we have rarely gotten to see the Klingon Empire unload on the Federation, like we got some scenes of in Axanar. The most I can think of is TUC and DS9.

A lot of conflict on Trek with the Klingons and others was the threat of conflict, not the actuality. Prelude showed us some of that, when diplomacy breaks down, and there are no last second great speeches or gambits, its a war for survival. In my head canon I was looking forward to seeing more of Axanar so it could add weight to the encounters with the future encounters with the Klingons, from TOS onward.

 

[fireproof78]

^^
That part I can understand, and certainly would have been enjoyable as part of visuals. But, given the basis of the Klingons was the Soviet Union vs. the US, open war was not as likely to be seen.

But, from an action and strategic point of view, absolutely, I would have enjoyed seeing it. I love fan works for that perspective, things that otherwise would be left unexplored or not always considered. Video games are great for this

But, as for canon, I don't have to see the Klingons bring their full force to bear, just like I don't need to see the Federation bring full force to bear. It's a cool visual, and a lot of fun but not necessary to build upon what is established already.

tl:dr It's nice visually but not necessary.

 

[DarKush]

^
Fair enough. Though I will say even though the US/USSR conflict inspired the Federation/Klingon conflict it didn't mean that Trek had to adhere to the real world way things went. If anything, while the Cold War was still on showing a devastating war could've been a cautionary tale for us of what could happen if the US and USSR did go to war.

For canon, I wouldn't mind that there had been a war, a Four Years War. Sure I would want to see it, like in Axanar, but if it had been in the background, with say Pike being a Four Years War veteran, I could tolerate that. Since Enterprise put the Klingon-Earth first contact over a hundred years before TOS, and we see that the Klingons even in the ENT time frame were belligerent and expansionist, it just seems like there would've been a war with either Earth (which the Empire threatened during the Augments arc, or at least a retaliation for Malik's attack). But I could see the Klingons testing a young Federation, right after the Romulan War, or eventually bumping against a growing Federation.

Fair point that it's not necessary, but still it would be nice for me. And it would fit the Klingons, or my sense of them.