TSFS - Let's assume Kirk was thinking clearly

[R. Star]

I mean they opened fire upon a BOP as soon as it de-cloaked without actually waiting to see whether they armed their weapons or tried to establish contact.

I swear, do some people actually watch the movies...

SULU: Klingon Bird of Prey, sir! She's arming torpedoes!

That line was given as the ship decloaked.

What exactly would be Kirk's reason to wait and communicate with the Klingons? They are unable to contact the Grissom and the Bird-of-Prey is arming weapons as she's decloaking.

Woops! It's seems that I forgot that particular piece of dialogue.

Of course, my problem with that scene is the fact that Kirk doesn't immediately raise shields (torpedoes would be useless against full strength shields) as the BOP decloaks, in fact why didn't Scotty or Sulu (who were pretty much handling everything except comms and science) have one of their respective fingers on the shields button during the whole "is it a cloaked ship or a subspace distortion" debate?

Anyway, it just adds to the idea that Kirk and co. weren't thinking clearly, it was only a few weeks ago that they were caught out by not raising their shields at the first sign of trouble. The worst thing that could have happened was the shields would not raise and everything would go to hell like it did anyway, the conversation with Kruge would still happen (because of his ego - "take prisoners, screw the usual practice of destroying any and all enemies") and the Enterprise crew would still formulate the self-destruct plan - again I refer you all to the incredible missed opportunity that they had to beam the entire Klingon crew to somewhere where they wouldn't be a problem like Space or a volcano on Genesis, or perhaps the Enterprise brig? (for those of you still convinced that Kirk and co. were doing things the "Starfleet" way, despite the fact they all decided to murder most of the Klingon crew by blowing up the Enterprise).

It's really out of character and we all know that the reason that things went this way was because the Enterprise needed to be destroyed and somebody felt that Kirk and the villain needed to have a physical encounter because it was absent from TWOK.

In terms of the morality of it all, Kirk did say that to Kruge that "your presence here is an act of war" where the usual rules don't apply, he was also left with a clapped out starship a limited crew with an average age of 50 and plenty of reasons to believe that they would all be executed upon allowing the Klingon crew aboard. With resources limited, a hostile force about to descend upon you and the very real possibility that your life and the lives of your friends are about come to an end - you would jump at any opportunity in which to break out of this predicament. It just so happened that Kirk ignored the first and most obvious opportunity (and easily the most efficient).

One, it's not a crime to attack someone who clearly is going to attack you. Two, there were five of them on the ship. Getting into a shooting match wasn't the ideal choice. Kirk made the right move by luring them into weapons range and getting in the first hit when they decloaked.

If the Klingons were there peacefully they wouldn't be cloaked, they wouldn't destroy Grissom, and I honestly don't see how you can defend them not being treated as the villains they were in this movie.

As for your suggestion of raising shields? Did you not watch the movie? They tried that and they didn't work. The computer automation systems overloaded. Let's suppose Kirk did follow your suggestion. Not only would that have alerted the Klingons that they were detected, but if they failed the Klingons would have gotten in the first shot and crippled them. As it happened the ship running on automation was crippled anyways.

 

[BillJ]

One, it's not a crime to attack someone who clearly is going to attack you.

This is where the situation gets sticky for the Federation...

They did develop a device that could very easily be used as a weapon of mass destruction. The Klingons could simply claim that they feared that the weapon would be used on them. And were attempting to even the playing field. Much like the Federation did with the Romulan cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

One, it's not a crime to attack someone who clearly is going to attack you.

This is where the situation gets sticky for the Federation...

They did develop a device that could very easily be used as a weapon of mass destruction. The Klingons could simply claim that they feared that the weapon would be used on them. And were attempting to even the playing field. Much like the Federation did with the Romulan cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident.

Except the federation didn't blow up a Romulan ship, take hostages, and then murder one of them when it looked like they might have gotten in over there heads.

 

[BillJ]

One, it's not a crime to attack someone who clearly is going to attack you.

This is where the situation gets sticky for the Federation...

They did develop a device that could very easily be used as a weapon of mass destruction. The Klingons could simply claim that they feared that the weapon would be used on them. And were attempting to even the playing field. Much like the Federation did with the Romulan cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident.

Except the federation didn't blow up a Romulan ship, take hostages, and then murder one of them when it looked like they might have gotten in over there heads.

Doesn't really matter. They invaded a sovereign nation with the intent of stealing their technology.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ It does matter. The theft of the Romulan cloaking device was a surgical strike, as it were. Industrial espionage.

There were no casualties, Kirk and his crew never killed anyone during that mission. The only hostage was the Romulan commander, and she was obviously not going to be tortured and killed like Klingons do to their prisoners. Indeed, in most of the outcomes for that character, she was eventually returned to Romulus unharmed.

 

[BillJ]

^ It does matter. The theft of the Romulan cloaking device was a surgical strike, as it were. Industrial espionage.

There were no casualties, Kirk and his crew never killed anyone during that mission. The only hostage was the Romulan commander, and she was obviously not going to be tortured and killed like Klingons do to their prisoners. Indeed, in most of the outcomes for that character, she was eventually returned to Romulus unharmed.

Obviously it wasn't a big deal to the Federation as they allowed the matter to drop. We never saw the Klingons backpedal and try to claim Kruge was a rogue element.

And Kirk did assault a Romulan guard during the theft of the cloaking device and would've probably killed to complete his mission if it came right down to it.

Maybe all those folks wouldn't have gotten killed if the Federation had actually assigned a ship that could defend itself to the area.

 

[sonak]

One, it's not a crime to attack someone who clearly is going to attack you.

This is where the situation gets sticky for the Federation...

They did develop a device that could very easily be used as a weapon of mass destruction. The Klingons could simply claim that they feared that the weapon would be used on them. And were attempting to even the playing field. Much like the Federation did with the Romulan cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident.

Even leaving aside what other posters have written, that Kruge had murdered scores of people as opposed to what Kirk did in TEI, the situation is not analogous.

The cloaking device was strictly a military device, whereas the Genesis device had peaceful applications. Plus, Kruge wasn't looking for the torpedo itself, he was going to the Genesis Planet. Finally, the UFP had already made concessions to Klingon feelings on the subject, by declaring the planet off-limits to all but scientific personnel.

 

[R. Star]

^ It does matter. The theft of the Romulan cloaking device was a surgical strike, as it were. Industrial espionage.

There were no casualties, Kirk and his crew never killed anyone during that mission. The only hostage was the Romulan commander, and she was obviously not going to be tortured and killed like Klingons do to their prisoners. Indeed, in most of the outcomes for that character, she was eventually returned to Romulus unharmed.

Obviously it wasn't a big deal to the Federation as they allowed the matter to drop. We never saw the Klingons backpedal and try to claim Kruge was a rogue element.

And Kirk did assault a Romulan guard during the theft of the cloaking device and would've probably killed to complete his mission if it came right down to it.

Maybe all those folks wouldn't have gotten killed if the Federation had actually assigned a ship that could defend itself to the area.

Yeah, obviously it's the Federation's fault. The Klingons are capable of no wrong doing.

 

[BillJ]

Finally, the UFP had already made concessions to Klingon feelings on the subject, by declaring the planet off-limits to all but scientific personnel.

If they were making concessions, they would've allowed Klingon scientists to see the Genesis Planet.

Would we believe the Iranians if they started buying up uranium for nuclear powered popcorn makers? Or would we want to actually verify what they were doing?

Remember, Kruge didn't intend to destroy Grissom only to disable it.

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, obviously it's the Federation's fault. The Klingons are capable of no wrong doing.

No one said that. But the Federation would have to have some brass balls to complain about the Genesis incident when they had no problem going and violating others sovereign territory.

 

[R. Star]

Finally, the UFP had already made concessions to Klingon feelings on the subject, by declaring the planet off-limits to all but scientific personnel.

If they were making concessions, they would've allowed Klingon scientists to see the Genesis Planet.

Would we believe the Iranians if they started buying up uranium for nuclear powered popcorn makers? Or would we want to actually verify what they were doing?

Remember, Kruge didn't intend to destroy Grissom only to disable it.

Oh that's so much less aggressive and hostile. He only meant to take them captive and hold them against their will, not murder them! And we saw later in the movie how benign Krudge was with prisoners.

Yeah, obviously it's the Federation's fault. The Klingons are capable of no wrong doing.

No one said that. But the Federation would have to have some brass balls to complain about the Genesis incident when they had no problem going and violating others sovereign territory.

You're the one going around defending the Klingons as if they were somehow the wronged party in all this.

Lest we forget the Enterprise Incident led to the treaty of Algerion. Which by the way kept the peace between the Romulans and the Federation for nearly a 100 years on the condition that the Federation didn't devolop cloaking technology.

Preemptive strikes against a force that clearly means you harm is not a wrong. By the way you make it out, Kirk should have just let Krudge blow him out of space and kill everyone because he might hurt them if he fights back.

 

[BillJ]

Preemptive strikes against a force that clearly means you harm is not a wrong. By the way you make it out, Kirk should have just let Krudge blow him out of space and kill everyone because he might hurt them if he fights back.

You really go out of your way to misrepresent other people's positions.

Kruge got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and paid the price. But it would've never gotten that far if one of two things had happened: invite Klingon scientists to investigate the Genesis planet or put an actual starship with the ability to defend itself there with Grissom.

The Klingons took advantage of lax Federation security regarding Genesis.

EDIT: The Treaty of Algeron was only in existence for sixty years making its creation date as 2308. The Enterprise Incident took place in 2269, some forty years prior. So I doubt that those actions lead to the treaty.

 

[R. Star]

Preemptive strikes against a force that clearly means you harm is not a wrong. By the way you make it out, Kirk should have just let Krudge blow him out of space and kill everyone because he might hurt them if he fights back.

You really go out of your way to misrepresent other people's positions.

Kruge got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and paid the price. But it would've never gotten that far if one of two things had happened: invite Klingon scientists to investigate the Genesis planet or put an actual starship with the ability to defend itself there with Grissom.

The Klingons took advantage of lax Federation security regarding Genesis.

EDIT: The Treaty of Algeron was only in existence for sixty years making its creation date as 2308. The Enterprise Incident took place in 2269, some forty years prior. So I doubt that those actions lead to the treaty.

Now you seem to be putting words in my mouth. The planet was in Federation space. The Klingons had no business there. None. As for a ship to defend Grissom, it was a SCIENCE mission. Who could forsee a Klingon with a grudge would suddenly decide that the ruins of Hiroshima contained the secrets to building an atomic bomb?

As for the Treaty of Algeron? No... of course the Federation obtaining a fully functional cloaking device and a treaty which kept the peace on condition of the Federation not researching cloaking technology had NOTHING to do with each other.

 

[BillJ]

The planet was in Federation space. The Klingons had no business there. None. As for a ship to defend Grissom, it was a SCIENCE mission. Who could forsee a Klingon with a grudge would suddenly decide that the ruins of Hiroshima contained the secrets to building an atomic bomb?

Everything that was happening on the planet was a direct result of the implementation of the Genesis Device. By taking reading you more than likely could begin to decode some of went into Genesis by the actions taking place on the surface.

As for the Treaty of Algeron? No... of course the Federation obtaining a fully functional cloaking device and a treaty which kept the peace on condition of the Federation not researching cloaking technology had NOTHING to do with each other.

You want to try to tie an incident that happened forty years prior to a treaty... more power to you. But let's be honest, in the 23rd century, how many Fed ships did we see with cloaking technology? Zero. But if you're not allowed to develop them, then you're going to have a harder time detecting them.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

According to Memory Alpha, the treaty was signed in 2311 after the Tomed Incident which killed thousands.

 

[sonak]

Preemptive strikes against a force that clearly means you harm is not a wrong. By the way you make it out, Kirk should have just let Krudge blow him out of space and kill everyone because he might hurt them if he fights back.

You really go out of your way to misrepresent other people's positions.

Kruge got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and paid the price. But it would've never gotten that far if one of two things had happened: invite Klingon scientists to investigate the Genesis planet or put an actual starship with the ability to defend itself there with Grissom.

The Klingons took advantage of lax Federation security regarding Genesis.

EDIT: The Treaty of Algeron was only in existence for sixty years making its creation date as 2308. The Enterprise Incident took place in 2269, some forty years prior. So I doubt that those actions lead to the treaty.

I'll agree that there should have been a better-armed ship defending the Grissom.


But as for allowing Klingon scientists, no way. The UFP was in a Cold War with the Klingons. Can you imagine the U.S. sharing key strategic secrets with the USSR of some new technology that gave them the advantage for basically nothing at all? Sharing just to be on friendlier terms?


Well, actually I can see the UFP of the TNG era doing something weak like that, but not Kirk's UFP.

 

[JRS]

'm saying that Kirk ordering Scotty to transport the crew of a Klingon vessel into a volcano, or dispersing their atoms into space, is not the Starfleet way. Allowing a boarding party to decide to beam over to a vessel that has a self-protection device operating, and Kirk offering a hand to an endangered opponent after a fist fight, are not as morally-bankrupt choices as your suggestions.

I think using self-destruct to prevent ones ship to be captured is standard procedure in Starfleet( Janeway was trying to blow up Voyager, when the Kazon boarded her in "Basics")
Kirk just used this also to escape and get rid of the enemy at the same time. The Klingons allready had done plenty of damage before this..and their death was probably honorable as well, to them anyways.

 

[Mr Silver]

One, it's not a crime to attack someone who clearly is going to attack you. Two, there were five of them on the ship. Getting into a shooting match wasn't the ideal choice. Kirk made the right move by luring them into weapons range and getting in the first hit when they decloaked.

If the Klingons were there peacefully they wouldn't be cloaked, they wouldn't destroy Grissom, and I honestly don't see how you can defend them not being treated as the villains they were in this movie.

Hey, I'm the one who suggested that Kirk and co simply should have beamed them into space or into a volcano on Genesis rather than going over the top, blowing the Enterprise up and then engaging in mortal hand to hand combat on the surface.

I don't know where exactly you are coming from when you suggest that I'm in favour of the Klingons being treated diplomatically. The whole point of this thread was to debate the lack of efficiency and the waste of opportunities on Kirk's part, not to argue whether the Klingons

As for your suggestion of raising shields? Did you not watch the movie? They tried that and they didn't work. The computer automation systems overloaded. Let's suppose Kirk did follow your suggestion. Not only would that have alerted the Klingons that they were detected, but if they failed the Klingons would have gotten in the first shot and crippled them. As it happened the ship running on automation was crippled anyways.

Um, I did say that I thought they should have raised shields prior to opening fire, such as doing it just as the BOP de-cloaked. All I'm saying is, Kirk should have attempted to raise shields immediately following the BOP de-cloaking and Sulu subsequently detecting that it was charging weapons. Nobody had any idea that the shields would fail and the fact that they were in a damaged ship meant that it was crucial to get shields up right away, rather than risk a stray torpedo shot from the BOP as the Enterprise fired their sneak attack.

 

[BillJ]

But as for allowing Klingon scientists, no way. The UFP was in a Cold War with the Klingons. Can you imagine the U.S. sharing key strategic secrets with the USSR of some new technology that gave them the advantage for basically nothing at all? Sharing just to be on friendlier terms?


Well, actually I can see the UFP of the TNG era doing something weak like that, but not Kirk's UFP.

I'm not advocating giving the Klingons the schematics to the Genesis Device. But if you're trying to convince everyone this isn't a weapon, the best way to do it is to allow those who don't trust your intentions to see the end product.

I don't see it as weak, I see it as dealing from a position of strength. The more you keep it secretive, the more your enemies will be convinced that your explanations aren't exactly on the up-and-up.

 

[CoveTom]

Um, I did say that I thought they should have raised shields prior to opening fire, such as doing it just as the BOP de-cloaked. All I'm saying is, Kirk should have attempted to raise shields immediately following the BOP de-cloaking and Sulu subsequently detecting that it was charging weapons. Nobody had any idea that the shields would fail and the fact that they were in a damaged ship meant that it was crucial to get shields up right away, rather than risk a stray torpedo shot from the BOP as the Enterprise fired their sneak attack.

Kirk considered raising shields earlier and rejected the idea. In fact, McCoy questioned him about it. The implication of the scene is that Kirk did not want to alert the Klingons to the fact he detected them, which raising shields would have done.

Remember, there were a grand total of five people aboard the Enterprise. Even though Kirk didn't know that the automation systems would fail, he did know that the ship was in bad, bad shape after the battle with Khan and that Scotty had patched it together for them to go on this rescue mission. He had no idea how well anything on the ship would perform, let alone how it would stand up in a firefight. He simply did not have the luxury of being able to raise the shields and play defense while trying to negotiate. He had to strike first when the Klingons were vulnerable and attempt to disable or destroy them. Anything else would have put his ship at unwarranted risk.

 

[Phantassm]

But it's cool to kick a guy in the head until he falls into a river of lava?

For shits and giggles. What exactly would you do if you tried to help someone and they grabbed your foot and tried to pull you into a river of lava?

It may not be "cool", but it was necessary.

Agreed...I don't understand why someone can't understand this and if you think starfleet officers should beam people into volcanoes you've missed what trek is suppose to be about for the past 4o years.