I can't let this go without a response... I like T'Pol's swinging udders
Trip and T'pol come together without having Vulcan neuropressure
- Thread starter sekundant
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I like my women the way I like my groceries: all natural.
Do you mean Vulcans or "Luca s" is some kind of internal joke? If yes, never heard it before.
I have written before " in my eyes their relationship (TnT) is some kind of
"pure feelings vs pure logic" plus
"pure feelings and pure logic" allegory."
At least for me it is a not typical girl loves boy, boy loves girl story and I didn't expect a kitschy happy end but more then what we get. I have to admit although however I do not like all " they must be suffer, Trip get addicted/mental disorder, T'Pol will be drama queen" fanfics, even the novels are not fair with their relationship. I do not understand, what is the point? Next human/Vulcan couples Amanda /Sarek or Perrin/Sarek seem don't have such an emotional carousel. They find a way to perceive and respect to each other with all their own weakness and strengths.
There are too many self-help autistic groups who are using Vulcan analogy to describe their emotional cognition. Did someone read "Loving Mr Spock: Understanding an Aloof Lover. Could it be Asperger's Syndrome?" by Barbara Jacobs? I doubt that if the show authors ever think this way and I am still convinced that VPN was not the best/worst solution for become them intimidate. Anyhow, T'Pol didn't not only teach VPN and at the same time learned that to be touched can be agreeable
In my head canon it was their joint interest in horror films that caused the spark. When T'Pol had her fake Ponn Farr she was open to having sex with Phlox, even though she was not in her right mind, she obviously had no issues with interspecies relationships. Their breakup in that travesty TATV totally contrived.
OK, maybe it is time to bring new stuff at the thread.
One thing that I did not very much understand was the psychic bond between TnT . So far we know, Vulcan pairs stay one year together after the weeding ceremony and for some cases -or there is a belief about this- develop this kind of bond.
Well, they shared long time a very restricted space at the ship and had shared (only once) sexual intimidate. After "Home" it was not easy with them, even simple conversations were tend the tension. Trip could be diagnosed as love sick. I am not very sure about T'Pol, so were she suffered in her Vulcan way for only lost of "love" or for more than this, their friendship that they obviously shared? By the way, they were not comfortable at each others company, even more Trip changed to Columbia. Suddenly they began with these day dream experiences..
I am not very sure how it is possible (OK, may be technically healing of T'Pol from Pa'nar syndrome) without sharing a year together as mate. Do you think VNP seasons were intense and long enough to build such a bond?
One thing that I did not very much understand was the psychic bond between TnT . So far we know, Vulcan pairs stay one year together after the weeding ceremony and for some cases -or there is a belief about this- develop this kind of bond.
Well, they shared long time a very restricted space at the ship and had shared (only once) sexual intimidate. After "Home" it was not easy with them, even simple conversations were tend the tension. Trip could be diagnosed as love sick. I am not very sure about T'Pol, so were she suffered in her Vulcan way for only lost of "love" or for more than this, their friendship that they obviously shared? By the way, they were not comfortable at each others company, even more Trip changed to Columbia. Suddenly they began with these day dream experiences..
I am not very sure how it is possible (OK, may be technically healing of T'Pol from Pa'nar syndrome) without sharing a year together as mate. Do you think VNP seasons were intense and long enough to build such a bond?
I think the bond started to form around the time of "Similitude" when T'Pol became aware of Trip's feelings for her (conveyed via Sim). Their NP sessions might have laid some groundwork too, since that really developed their trust and frienship, at least in my headcanon. 
I wouldn't expect the bond to develop as it would between two newly-wed Vulcans. This was a Vulcan and a human, the Vulcan was married to another, they weren't trying to develop a bond as a married couple would.
I think it snuck up on them, as their personal relationship deepened. Trip was certainly in love with her, but T'Pol's feelings were very conflicted, and the bond would have initiated with her, even unconsciously, because she's the one with telepathic ability.
Oh, and throw trellium addiction in the mix too. Who knows what effect it would have had in forming the bond, since it stripped away her emotional control.
They were mighty surprised to find out they were bonded. Looks to me like they never thought it could happen, especially under such trying circumstances, mixed feelings, Koss. But love finds a way.
I wouldn't expect the bond to develop as it would between two newly-wed Vulcans. This was a Vulcan and a human, the Vulcan was married to another, they weren't trying to develop a bond as a married couple would.
I think it snuck up on them, as their personal relationship deepened. Trip was certainly in love with her, but T'Pol's feelings were very conflicted, and the bond would have initiated with her, even unconsciously, because she's the one with telepathic ability.
Oh, and throw trellium addiction in the mix too. Who knows what effect it would have had in forming the bond, since it stripped away her emotional control.
They were mighty surprised to find out they were bonded. Looks to me like they never thought it could happen, especially under such trying circumstances, mixed feelings, Koss. But love finds a way.
"Many women wear form-fitting clothing. Why, you can see them everyday in their yoga pants and whatnot. Therefore, it is only proper that such women should feel included in the Trek universe via strong characters like Seven and T'Pol."
-Gayatri Spivak
-Gayatri Spivak
Hoshi.
I don't, uh ... I don't see that happening.
I don't take issue with the way they cane together. It wasn't an obvious attraction from the start but put in a situation where they became close physically and opened up to each other conversationally it made sense.
I suppose they could have done the "trapped in a shuttle" thing
I suppose they could have done the "trapped in a shuttle" thing
I feel myself a little bit host of thread, so I give some feedback about the previous posts.
Thank you, HopefulRomantic, it makes sense. Similitude is one of my favorite episode and main reason is not famous kiss scene but all the food for thought about live and die/ lost of beloved one/ confrontation with own limits. If we come back to kiss scene, I have something to ask, remember the dialog:
Trip: Was there ever anything between you and Trip?
T'Pol: If you are referring to a romantic relationship... no.
Trip: The reason I ask is... well... you're all I think about, if you know what I mean. And, I'm not talking about an adolescent crush. That was... well, that was two days ago. This is much more serious, the way I feel about you. Anyway, what's driving me crazy is, I don't know if these feelings are mine... or his.
T'Pol: I can't answer that.
Trip: I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable.
T'Pol: I'm not uncomfortable.
Trip: I just thought I should tell you this, while I still had the chance.
What do you think why she says, she is not uncomfortable? Because, she is a Vulcan and theoretical she should not show her emotions or she wants to say that she is OK with it?
I think the bond started to form around the time of "Similitude" when T'Pol became aware of Trip's feelings for her (conveyed via Sim). Their NP sessions might have laid some groundwork too, since that really developed their trust and frienship, at least in my headcanon.
Thank you, HopefulRomantic, it makes sense. Similitude is one of my favorite episode and main reason is not famous kiss scene but all the food for thought about live and die/ lost of beloved one/ confrontation with own limits. If we come back to kiss scene, I have something to ask, remember the dialog:
Trip: Was there ever anything between you and Trip?
T'Pol: If you are referring to a romantic relationship... no.
Trip: The reason I ask is... well... you're all I think about, if you know what I mean. And, I'm not talking about an adolescent crush. That was... well, that was two days ago. This is much more serious, the way I feel about you. Anyway, what's driving me crazy is, I don't know if these feelings are mine... or his.
T'Pol: I can't answer that.
Trip: I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable.
T'Pol: I'm not uncomfortable.
Trip: I just thought I should tell you this, while I still had the chance.
What do you think why she says, she is not uncomfortable? Because, she is a Vulcan and theoretical she should not show her emotions or she wants to say that she is OK with it?
Wasn't Malcolm Reed character originally written as first openly gay character? I know, it has nothing to do with the thread. If I am thinking about all the hate about ENT (from a loud and puritan minority, as I can judge).. I cannot even imagine what would be if the producers dared the Hoshi and T'Pol relationship
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When T'Pol says "I'm not uncomfortable," it seems to me that she is VERY uncomfortable. Sure, she could be trying to be a proper Vulcan and deny having an emotional reaction to Sim's confession. But there's more going on here. I think she's overwhelmed by the idea that Sim, or actually Trip, is in love with her...because she has feelings for him too, and Maybe she's been in denial about that, but Sim's confession is forcing her to confront these feelings, and she's totally unprepared for that. Vulcan doesn't teach its people how to deal with their emotions, they mostly teach them how to suppress emotion. So here she is trying mightily to hide her feelings, but you can see by those beautiful eyes welling with tears, and the hitch to her voice, that she has huge feelings roiling around inside her. This scene is just breathtaking, Sim's open affection and T'Pol's desperately denied emotion.
Can you tell this is one of my most favorite episodes?
I don't think Malcolm's sexual orientation was ever specified, it's in the eye of the beholder. And I don't think ENT haters are any particular type either -- other than being united in their dislike for the show, lol. And if you read fanfic you'll find some folks who love the idea of T'Pol/Hoshi.Wasn't Malcolm Reed character originally written as first openly gay character? I know, it has nothing to do with the thread. If I am thinking about all the hate about ENT (from a loud and puritan minority, as I can judge).. I cannot even imagine what would be if the producers dared the Hoshi and T'Pol relationship
Yes, exactly.. At least there are two of us. I thought all time, may be it is me who wish to see something sophisticated at a show which is produced for the mass and shouldn't to read too much into it. That is exactly what I mean with
" confrontation with own limits". Sure, even Archer and Phlox are dealing with their limits at the episode, but they are also talking about the situation, not T'Pol.
As I have read the Nimoy books "I'm not Spock" and "I'm Spock" , I realized how hard he tried to give the figure Spock his character, his dignity, his cultural background and his complexity as an artist and intellectual. Think about Vulcan greetings (Hand+ LLAP) or so called sex scene at " The Enterprise Incident". They were really "alien" to our western culture.
When people talk about crew's mess scene at Harbinger and decide how immature react the T'Pol, I think they all forget where she is. As you said, she haven't learned how to deal with emotions. It was reason why she experimented with Trellium-D . Yes, she was curious, tried and got cold feet.
And my respect to JB and CT, for every single nuance of their acting at this heartrending scene without being kitschy.
Ahh, as I said before I won't be surprised about any kind of fan pairing, since youtube recommended me Archer/ Soval slash videos and I was almost convinced that I overlook something terribly .
No. T'Pol and Seven were not given tight clothing to wear for female viewers. It was strictly eye candy for male viewers. C'mon.
And yoga pants =/= specially structured bodysuits that are designed to perk up and highlight each breast. Yoga pants are not in the same galaxy as those bodysuits.And I say this is as a female that has a really good body and likes tight shirts.
Boy, you said it. STAR TREK babes aren't wearing catsuits for utility and comfort -- that's for certain.
Ohh boyy! Cat suits! Again! I do not want to beat around the bush, may be before we discuss about VNP we have to talk about one of the main point of critics to ENT: Was T'Pol oversexualized? Or much more better: women at ST Universe. (Actually, I want to keep the frame of topic of this thread and not to spread)
OK, let me see the facts:
- Are super-hyper-mini skirts and scarcely dressed beautiful ladies part of the show from the very beginning?
Yes!
-Has someone had problem with it? Especially anti sexist 68 movement?
No, as far as I know. What about you? ( To be fair, Nimoy told that there were misogynous moments at TOS, but he was talking about e.g. "Turnabout Intruder" )And not to forget, we wouldn't get Trek back, if the 60's- 70's housewives didn't fight for. After 50 years, still I know very few housewives who are from the first row of libertarian folks. (May be I am dealing with wrong people
)
-Has the Trek keep this tradition?
Yes! From TMP to TNG. From Ilia to Troi.
-Has someone had problem with it?
No, as far as I know. What about you?
----
Question is why some people begin talk only about catsuits, if Seven or T'Pol mentioned somewhere? Of course they are EYE-CANDIES ( not only for those caricatures like16 years old computer acne faced geeks or horny old Trekkies.) I do not think anyone can deny this. BUT, they are both STRONG LADIES too. And another strong woman, Prof. Gayatri Spivak referring exactly this. That is the point: she is not talking about Troi, who is only EYE-CANDY good girl.
At the university I was the first female person after eleven years at my discipline. For eleven years my predecessor failed the final exam.. twice..My professors and my colleagues were pretty sure, I would fail too. What I am wearing, how I look like, how I react to some rough jokes etc. were not my own issue, but welcoming conversation stuff for everyone. To manage cases like this and anyhow go your own way will be easier, if you have some idols aaaand what can give us better idols than ST?
This is the concept what Prof. Spivak talking about, as I understand.
What producers aim and what the audience make it from are two different things. No one created Spock as sex icon. Think about it!
OK, let me see the facts:
- Are super-hyper-mini skirts and scarcely dressed beautiful ladies part of the show from the very beginning?
Yes!
-Has someone had problem with it? Especially anti sexist 68 movement?
No, as far as I know. What about you? ( To be fair, Nimoy told that there were misogynous moments at TOS, but he was talking about e.g. "Turnabout Intruder" )And not to forget, we wouldn't get Trek back, if the 60's- 70's housewives didn't fight for. After 50 years, still I know very few housewives who are from the first row of libertarian folks. (May be I am dealing with wrong people
)-Has the Trek keep this tradition?
Yes! From TMP to TNG. From Ilia to Troi.
-Has someone had problem with it?
No, as far as I know. What about you?
----
Question is why some people begin talk only about catsuits, if Seven or T'Pol mentioned somewhere? Of course they are EYE-CANDIES ( not only for those caricatures like16 years old computer acne faced geeks or horny old Trekkies.) I do not think anyone can deny this. BUT, they are both STRONG LADIES too. And another strong woman, Prof. Gayatri Spivak referring exactly this. That is the point: she is not talking about Troi, who is only EYE-CANDY good girl.
At the university I was the first female person after eleven years at my discipline. For eleven years my predecessor failed the final exam.. twice..My professors and my colleagues were pretty sure, I would fail too. What I am wearing, how I look like, how I react to some rough jokes etc. were not my own issue, but welcoming conversation stuff for everyone. To manage cases like this and anyhow go your own way will be easier, if you have some idols aaaand what can give us better idols than ST?
This is the concept what Prof. Spivak talking about, as I understand. What producers aim and what the audience make it from are two different things. No one created Spock as sex icon. Think about it!
I remember that when I watched Enterprise that the show seemed to be trying to push Archer / T'pol for ages which I found icky for some reason - probably the lack of chemistry between the actors. I think the neuropressure forced things that could have been made to happen more naturally. Trip and Tpol were opposites in many ways but very similar in other, they seemed drawn to each other and it would have worked well as a slow burn romance.
Archer was the captain and thus couldn't be with an underling.
I didn't care either way about her relationship with each but wish she'd only been romantically interested in only one.
She seemed to care for Jonathan and was physically attracted to Trip. Archer being her superior may have been why it felt wrong to some but I feel Trip just had few from which he could choose and liked that she was there. The age range didn't seem all that great between Archer and Trip and Vulcans do age at a different rate which is why a Vulcan would be better for her, unless she would later find another human after her man aged and died.
She seemed to care for Jonathan and was physically attracted to Trip. Archer being her superior may have been why it felt wrong to some but I feel Trip just had few from which he could choose and liked that she was there. The age range didn't seem all that great between Archer and Trip and Vulcans do age at a different rate which is why a Vulcan would be better for her, unless she would later find another human after her man aged and died.
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