TrekLit politics

[Allyn Gibson]

Anyway, I certainly don't see McKinley as being one of the most important American Presidents - I don't even see him making the top 15. Which, out of 43, isn't that great.

Presidential historians disagree with you. McKinley ranks in the top half in surveys going back to 1948, and he has broken into the top third (which, today, would be roughly 15) in many surveys. (See Wikipedia for details).

You know what would have been wish fulfillment for me? The Federation Council passing articles of impeachment against Min Zife and him being indicted by a Federation Grand Jury. That would have been liberal wish fulfillment, because that's what we liberals wanted to see happen to George W. Bush. And that didn't happen in the novel.

I think bigger -- indictment for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Hague.

However, just to show that I'm equal opportunity, I'd also like to see Obama indicted for crimes against humanity for condoning, if not outright approving, the torture of Bradley Manning at Quantico, which Hillary Clinton's own spokesperson has spoken out against publicly.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Torture? From what I just read in that link, nobody's laid a hand on him.

I guarandamntee ya thaf if they put him in general population, his life expectancy could be measured in minutes.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Psychological torture is still torture, and what's being done to Manning is psychological torture.

 

[Thestral]

Seems to me that Presidential assassination stories have been a staple of thrillers for *decades* - I don't see the fuss.

Indeed. Though I'm not really familiar with them myself.

Presidential historians disagree with you. McKinley ranks in the top half in surveys going back to 1948, and he has broken into the top third (which, today, would be roughly 15) in many surveys. (See Wikipedia for details).

Ehh, the aggregate is 20, or in the top half. Which is important (I'm not claiming he's a Millard Filmore) but not "one of the most important." Also, I don't necessarily think "important" is the same as "successful." I'd call Nixon one of the most important US Presidents - at least in large part because of his legacy. Besides, I never claimed to be a Presidential historian.

 

[Sci]

You know what would have been wish fulfillment for me? The Federation Council passing articles of impeachment against Min Zife and him being indicted by a Federation Grand Jury. That would have been liberal wish fulfillment, because that's what we liberals wanted to see happen to George W. Bush. And that didn't happen in the novel.

I think bigger -- indictment for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Hague.

I don't want that, simply because I want to prove to the world that an American court can be relied upon to enforce human rights.

 

[Christopher]

I don't want that, simply because I want to prove to the world that an American court can be relied upon to enforce human rights.

That's a good thought, but America should also be willing to demonstrate that it will follow international law, to participate as part of the world community rather than being the 800-pound gorilla that only follows the laws it independently chooses to follow. And war crimes are a matter for the Hague.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Psychological torture is still torture, and what's being done to Manning is psychological torture.

Well, I'm sure they'll be extra polite to him as he's being put in front of the firing squad.

 

[Thestral]

....

 

[Greg Cox]

I'd call Nixon one of the most important US Presidents - at least in large part because of his legacy. Besides, I never claimed to be a Presidential historian.

Well, we know Nixon will still be remembered centuries from now because Spock cites him in the sixth movie!

"Only Nixon could go to China."

 

[Sci]

I don't want that, simply because I want to prove to the world that an American court can be relied upon to enforce human rights.

That's a good thought, but America should also be willing to demonstrate that it will follow international law, to participate as part of the world community rather than being the 800-pound gorilla that only follows the laws it independently chooses to follow. And war crimes are a matter for the Hague.

Actually, it's my understanding that international law generally favors a national court handling a problem before international courts have to get involved. That's certainly how the ICC works, at any rate.

Psychological torture is still torture, and what's being done to Manning is psychological torture.

Well, I'm sure they'll be extra polite to him as he's being put in front of the firing squad.

For what, exactly? How is he any different from Daniel Ellsberg? In what sense do Manning's actions deserve the death penalty?

Hell, it looks like his leak helped inspire the revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya. He already deserves a medal just for getting rid of those first two countries' tyrants.

 

[Thestral]

I'd call Nixon one of the most important US Presidents - at least in large part because of his legacy. Besides, I never claimed to be a Presidential historian.

Well, we know Nixon will still be remembered centuries from now because Spock cites him in the sixth movie!

"Only Nixon could go to China."

Spock said it, I believe it, that settles it.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Torture? From what I just read in that link, nobody's laid a hand on him.

I guarandamntee ya thaf if they put him in general population, his life expectancy could be measured in minutes.

That speaks more to the moral depravity of the 'general population' than anything else.

 

[LaBarre]

Too bad. Star Trek has always been political and left-leaning. If you don't like that, you should go watch Star Wars, which safely couches its politics in fantasy and mysticism rather than substantive political concepts.

... Then you would be violating the inherent ethos of Star Trek, which has, whether or not you like it, always been left-leaning.

...Star Trek has always been left-leaning, and to say otherwise is just inaccurate.

...I've already demolished the idea that the murder of Zife was wish fulfillment. I'm curious, now: Who does Bacco stand for, in your eyes, if she's just wish fulfillment, too?

And what policies does Bacco have which mark her as a "stealth liberal," if that's how you view her? What traits of Bacco's make you think she'd be a liberal if she existed in the real world today?.

Did you read KRAD'S post of 4:58 yesterday:

One minor point -- Nan Bacco is not based on my grandmother. She is based in part on my great-grandmother, Grazia Silverio DeBacco, who came to this country from Italy as a girl in the early 20th century, moved to rural western Pennsylvania, and proceeded to have ten kids and raise them spectacularly well in the height of the Depression. She died in 2003 at the ripe old age of 98, in her sleep, surrounded by all ten kids.

President Bacco is also based, in part, on former Texas governor Ann Richardson, on the late political writer Molly Ivins, and yes, in part, on both Jed Bartlet and Andrew Shepherd, fictional presidents created by Aaron Sorkin.

 

[Sci]

Too bad. Star Trek has always been political and left-leaning. If you don't like that, you should go watch Star Wars, which safely couches its politics in fantasy and mysticism rather than substantive political concepts.

... Then you would be violating the inherent ethos of Star Trek, which has, whether or not you like it, always been left-leaning.

...Star Trek has always been left-leaning, and to say otherwise is just inaccurate.

...I've already demolished the idea that the murder of Zife was wish fulfillment. I'm curious, now: Who does Bacco stand for, in your eyes, if she's just wish fulfillment, too?

And what policies does Bacco have which mark her as a "stealth liberal," if that's how you view her? What traits of Bacco's make you think she'd be a liberal if she existed in the real world today?.

Did you read KRAD'S post of 4:58 yesterday:

The one written two days after the post you quote?

One minor point -- Nan Bacco is not based on my grandmother. She is based in part on my great-grandmother, Grazia Silverio DeBacco, who came to this country from Italy as a girl in the early 20th century, moved to rural western Pennsylvania, and proceeded to have ten kids and raise them spectacularly well in the height of the Depression. She died in 2003 at the ripe old age of 98, in her sleep, surrounded by all ten kids.

President Bacco is also based, in part, on former Texas governor Ann Richardson, on the late political writer Molly Ivins, and yes, in part, on both Jed Bartlet and Andrew Shepherd, fictional presidents created by Aaron Sorkin.

Yes, KRAD has said that before, and I believe I listed those same individuals in citing his creative influences (though I may be thinking of another thread). That Bacco is inspired by those persons does not make her an expy for them, however, nor does it make her a liberal wish-fulfillment character (since I rather doubt most American liberals consider Ivins or Richardson amongst their 10 ten icons).

 

[Christopher]

By the way, the Texas governor was named Ann Richards, according to Wikipedia. And the article's description of her policies suggests she was fairly liberal, certainly by Texas standards. Still, from what I remember of her, I'm sure KRAD was more inspired by her colorful personality and way of speaking than her politics.

Same with Ivins -- Wikipedia says she wrote from "an unabashed liberal perspective" (though she sometimes described herself as libertarian), but she was also known for her colorful, humorous writing style. Given that Federation politics can't be assumed to parallel ours, it's far more reasonable to conclude that he based Bacco on these individuals' personalities rather than their political stances.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

Torture? From what I just read in that link, nobody's laid a hand on him.

I guarandamntee ya thaf if they put him in general population, his life expectancy could be measured in minutes.

That speaks more to the moral depravity of the 'general population' than anything else.

That's makes no sense especially in regarding a prison and prisoners.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I gotta go with April on this one. Whatever any of US might think of Manning or his actions, there does exist a certain 'hierarchy' of crimes inside the prison population. Certain actions are grudgingly respected by the inmates, others not. Child molesters/rapists, for example, are quickly targeted for abuse and even murder. I'm not saying that Manning is anywhere near that level, but I wouldn't expect his fellow inmates to be particularly welcoming to him either. That just speaks to the level of prison culture, not our whole civilization.

 

[ProwlAlpha]

Besides, we are talking about a military prison. A suspected traitor will not go to well in a facility run and populated by military personnel.

 

[Captain Robert April]

^ Bingo.

Manning's crimes can be summed up with one word: TREASON. During time of war, no less. In my book, he'll be lucky if he gets off with thirty years of hard labor, the little shitheel needs to stood up against a wall and shot.

And Ellsberg's actions fall under the same category.

 

[Sci]

^ Bingo.

Manning's crimes can be summed up with one word: TREASON. During time of war, no less. In my book, he'll be lucky if he gets off with thirty years of hard labor, the little shitheel needs to stood up against a wall and shot.

Can you prove that the information Manning has leaked has actually damaged American national security?

And even if Manning committed treason, this does not justify torturing him.

And Ellsberg's actions fall under the same category.

Really? Leaking the Pentagon Papers was treason?

The leaking of a document that proved that U.S. government officials were lying about the Vietnam War and the U.S.'s ability to win that war, is treason?

The leaking of a document that the U.S. Supreme Court itself determined did not contain any information that compromised national security, therefore nullifying any arguments for classifying it on national security grounds, is treason?

I'm sorry, but how are you defining "treason?" "Failure to obey your glorious leader?"