Trek without "The Menagerie"

[Richard S. Ta]

Ha. I think Ian is from the UK. I got it.

@Ianburns252 Nay bother.

But nowhere in TOS is it said Spock didn't have a sister. So there is no contradiction.

That's right. Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side of the fence on this one. He kept his brother a secret until he absolutely didn't have to, so why not a sister?

 

[Weyoun 251]

Perhaps I'm simply unfamiliar with the phrase "am i fuck going to report you".
My apologies.

Haha - very much a Northern English (especially in Liverpool where I'm from and Leeds where I spent 14 years) way of saying things.

Generally to indicate that there is no chance of doing said thing - see "am I fuck going for a run" for fat bastards like me or "am I fuck going to vote for those Tory £#&@!" if you are just a decent human being.

I like to think I've brought some colour to your day with this addition to your vocab.

 

[Elder Knight]

You didn't originally say that no other show had done the same as The Menagerie, you said that you doubt that a show would do it without the impetus of having old footage to work with.

Anyway, my thing was just that a show depicting flashbacks to a point before the pilot isn't particularly confusing. But I also don't want to appear combative about it.

It could well be that the show wasn't revolutionary or important, but I thought it could be an interesting discussion.

 

[MAGolding]

...I feel that people suddenly discovering that Spock had served for 13 years and under a different captain would be taken poorly - considering many have said that Uhura or Chapel having served during SNW is wrong then it feels probable that there would be a similar reaction....

"The Menagerie Part 1":

MENDEZ: You ever met Chris Pike?
KIRK: When he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
MENDEZ: About your age. Big, handsome man, vital, active.
KIRK: I took over the Enterprise from him. Spock served with him for several years.
SPOCK: Eleven years, four months, five days.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/16.htm

 

[Neopeius]

I can only tell you what our crowd's reaction to "The Menagerie" was. Though some had issues with the plot, and several preferred the "The Cage" as a standalone, all agreed that it made the show much bigger. We got a starbase, a planet, tons of new characters, a court martial, a commodore... just tons of stuff. It was very exciting. We also got a sense of change. An evolution from one era to another.

And Spock shouting, "The WOMEN!"

Without it, we still would have enjoyed Trek, but it would have been shallower. Also, without "Menagerie", there wouldn't have been a clear Trek episode to pick for the Best Hugo for Dramatic Presentation. Folks were urged by BNFs to vote for that one because it was the one ep (of the three chosen -- "Corbomite" and "Naked Time" were the other two) that had Roddenberry's name on it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Truth be told, as a 8 year old, I thought the "The Menagerie" was pretty clever because they made the ship look different and used different uniforms.in the flashbacks. It wasn't until I read The Making of Star Trek, at age 13, that I found out the flashbacks were from an unused pilot.
Which I guess is clever, but not as cool as making up new uniforms. I probably thought it was Hunter in the wheelchair, too.

 

[fireproof78]

can only tell you what our crowd's reaction to "The Menagerie" was. Though some had issues with the plot, and several preferred the "The Cage" as a standalone, all agreed that it made the show much bigger. We got a starbase, a planet, tons of new characters, a court martial, a commodore... just tons of stuff. It was very exciting. We also got a sense of change. An evolution from one era to another.

I do like the sense of history it offers up in a pretty unique way. I still prefer the Cage as a standalone and do wonder, like the OP, what we might have gotten in it's place.

One idea that did cross my mind was that if they were in need of scripts (which was part of the struggle) if they just completely redid the Menagerie with Kirk and crew rather than Pike and crew.

 

[Neopeius]

I do like the sense of history it offers up in a pretty unique way. I still prefer the Cage as a standalone and do wonder, like the OP, what we might have gotten in it's place.

One idea that did cross my mind was that if they were in need of scripts (which was part of the struggle) if they just completely redid the Menagerie with Kirk and crew rather than Pike and crew.

You mean recycle The Cage's story? It was an expensive pilot to shoot. I think we'd be more likely to see The Omega Glory early.

 

[fireproof78]

You mean recycle The Cage's story? It was an expensive pilot to shoot. I think we'd be more likely to see The Omega Glory early.

Just spitballing since they didn't have completed scripts, at least that was part of the OP's initial discussion point.

I think they would use some elements from The Cage to create an episode if they didn't actually create the Menagerie from The Cage.

 

[Elder Knight]

,,,
I like to think I've brought some colour to your day with this addition to your vocab.

Or rather, "some off-colour"?

 

[Hofner]

I have vague memories of Gilligan's Island and Lost in Space repurposing footage from their pilots in later episodes.

Yes, in Lost in Space they used some of the footage from the unaired pilot in at least a couple of early episodes. Since Dr. Smith and the robot were not in the pilot, they had the Robinsons and West go off on some trip with the cowardly Dr. Smith choosing to stay behind with the robot in the Jupiter 2 to explain their absence.

Robert

 

[Kor]

You mean recycle The Cage's story? It was an expensive pilot to shoot. I think we'd be more likely to see The Omega Glory early.

Wasn't much of the higher expense of The Cage because it was the first episode ever, and everything had to be designed and developed from scratch? If The Cage hadn't been the first filmed episode, and the story was instead made as a mid-season episode with Kirk, it doesn't seem too inconceivable that the story could have been depicted effectively using the techniques we saw in other episodes for planet surfaces, subterranean areas, and alien makeup. Interestingly, Season 1 episodes with underground settings, "Devil in the Dark" and "What are Little Girls Made Of" only had the action happen underground and not on the planet surface. Possibly they were constrained to having to use the soundstages for either one or the other? The planet surface we saw in The Cage looked good. Really good. It was also huge, and was a big expense. So maybe in a Kirk Cage/Menagerie episode all the stuff on Talos IV would have taken place in underground caverns. As far as other expenses... maybe optical effects such as the laser cannon stuff would have been reduced. And the Talosians wouldn't have had those throbbing veins on their heads.

Kor

 

[Shawnster]

I feel that people suddenly discovering that Spock had served for 13 years and under a different captain would be taken poorly - considering many have said that Uhura or Chapel having served during SNW is wrong then it feels probable that there would be a similar reaction.

You are conflating two similar but unrelated topics. I don't believe the OP intended this to be another gripe session wherein one can express their bitter disappointment for some of DISCO and SNW character choices.

With only a handful of episodes seen and produced at the time, fans are not going to complain about how this new TV show has contracted 50+ years of continuity or how it's contradicted their 50+ years of interpretation of continuity. Giving newly established characters a history and backstory is not going to be perceived as small universe syndrome where fans will complain either that didn't happen or couldn't have happened.

The first season of a new show is not going to be accused of retconning itself. That only comes with age.

 

[Kor]

Having some kind of flashback scenes to characters in their younger days could have added some interesting background. As long as the flashbacks don't end up overtaking everything.

In terms of recent television, I would compare it more to the flashback stuff that happened in Arrow. At first it seemed that Oliver Queen had just plain-and-simple been stuck alone on an island before coming back and reuniting with his family members. Then there were flashbacks that showed how he had encountered a couple other people in those years and developed fighting skills and whatnot. Okay, that makes sense. But then as it went on, it kind of got out of hand as more and more flashbacks revealed this big, intricate, globetrotting storyline with its own big cast of characters that had actually happened in that time period. Some of it stretched credibility, even for a comic book show.

Kor

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I have vague memories of Gilligan's Island and Lost in Space repurposing footage from their pilots in later episodes.

Other series used pilot footage such as (and not limited to) The Fugitive, The Mod Squad, Land of the Giants, Emergency! and The Incredible Hulk.

 

[Weyoun 251]

You are conflating two similar but unrelated topics. I don't believe the OP intended this to be another gripe session wherein one can express their bitter disappointment for some of DISCO and SNW character choices.

With only a handful of episodes seen and produced at the time, fans are not going to complain about how this new TV show has contracted 50+ years of continuity or how it's contradicted their 50+ years of interpretation of continuity. Giving newly established characters a history and backstory is not going to be perceived as small universe syndrome where fans will complain either that didn't happen or couldn't have happened.

The first season of a new show is not going to be accused of retconning itself. That only comes with age.

Agreed that this isn't meant to be a bitching session and it wasn't intended that way.

However the various points I raised all have one thing in common - there is no evidence in the (as you say) 50 years of TV and films to explicitly contradict them.

This is also not confined to Trek but I would argue it was promulgated by Trek (and maybe Whovians) in the 70s and 80s was the idea of filling in the blanks using so called "beta canon" and head canon. These practices have then spread to the wider world so it is more common for people to get involved in the expanded universe around the principal media which has then, I think, contributed to fans these days being more particular about shows lining up precisely and having to tell you everything on the surface.

So yes, maybe you would get an easier ride due to it being a newer show but I also think it would not be as universal as it was back when first released

 

[Mudd]

Well there are flashback episodes in a lot of TV shows. Off the top of my head I know the Dick Van Dyke show did episodes about Rob and Laura's first meeting, their Wedding and I think the birth of Ritchie.

Thar's exactly what they didn't do on Trek. It seems weird to think that as kids in those days we could tell the difference, but oddly...we could. And the production made the show feel somehow more "real "

 

[Nyotarules]

There would be no If memory serves, which is a great episode

 

[Greg Cox]

Well there are flashback episodes in a lot of TV shows. Off the top of my head I know the Dick Van Dyke show did episodes about Rob and Laura's first meeting, their Wedding and I think the birth of Ritchie.

And THE ADDAMS FAMILY did a flashback episode to how Gomez first met Morticia.

 

[publiusr]

For the remaster, I would have liked a CGI three footer with spikes on the nacelles and first pilot end caps…then production the rest of the way with second pilot used for the Mirror Enterprise or other starships.