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Trek Ships Are Too Small Compared to Star Wars

Well, it wasn't called a flagship in any of the Prime timeline films. The Kelvin timeline Enterprise was referred to as such, though...
And the Kelvin Enterprise is MASSIVE compared to the TOS ship. This more than anything else leads me to believe that the ship that in the Kelvin universe is named "Enterprise" actually existed in the TOS timeline under a totally different name (USS Entente?)
 
And the Kelvin Enterprise is MASSIVE compared to the TOS ship. This more than anything else leads me to believe that the ship that in the Kelvin universe is named "Enterprise" actually existed in the TOS timeline under a totally different name (USS Entente?)
Redesigned Dreadnought perhaps?

I personally like seeing how ST ships and SW ships work together, but have never really worried about scale. Star Wars ships, specifically the ones shown in the films, are built by an Empire designed as weapons of fear and intimidation against a galaxy that is becoming more and more rebellious by the time we get to the Original Trilogy.

Also, Federation vessels have specific design parameters that have been followed for a long time and have resulted in some interesting design features. Also, note the backlash against the Defiant class design to recognize how ingrained those parameters are.

As pointed out, the more iconic ships of the SW universe are hardly the largest ones. The Aluminum Falcon and X-Wing are among the more iconic ships and certainly stand out against the "scary shape" of the Star Destroyer. Though, in my humble opinion, a Y-Wing could be redesigned fairly easily to fit in to the Star Trek universe.

Also, how does the Scimitar fit in to all of this?
 
I know nothing of this "Scimitar" of which you speak. Perhaps you are referring to the mythical tenth Star Trek film staring Patrick Stewart and That Guy Who Looks Nothing Like Patrick Stewart? All reputable scholars now confirm that movie is a myth.
I hate it when I have fever dreams and watch Lord of the Rings and play Descent while taking Nyquil.
 
"The Federation is too small compared to the Galactic Empire."

That's quite possibly the answer to the question of why Trek ships are puny compared to Star Destroyers. Are we talking pure combat here? Then consider: The Federation is a small galactic power. The Empire spanned the Star Wars galaxy and has access to a galactic level economy and resources. This is why Imperial Star Destroyers are even considered "small" capital ships in their fictional setting.

Look at "large" galactic powers in the Trek universe: The Borg and the Dominion. The Borg have no economy to speak of, they just hoover up resources and build massive cubes to continue the process. Their ship sizes make sense for that purpose. Each cube is very probably a planetary assimilation factory. The fact that it's also a starship that can attack other ships is its secondary role.

The Dominion actually have a ship that's roughly equal to the size of a Star Destroyer. I'm sure everyone has seen this:
Dominion scaling

(I'm also assuming the DS9 finale with the 5km battleships was a scaling error and that the battleship is 1.5km long)

The Dominion fielded four or five of these battleships at the most as seen on screen during the Dominion war. Guess what they fielded lots of; the teeny tiny attack ship in the top right-hand corner. The ship that's cheap to mass-produce, can be fielded in large numbers and can take down a fleet of bigger ships like a swarm of angry wasps. In a setting where smaller ships can be extremely effective in combat, a bigger ship is just a bigger target.

The Dominion is probably large enough with enough resources and an economy that can support a large number of big scary battleships, but they still build thousands of small attack ships that pack a punch, are hard to hit, and are easily replaced. Dominion battle strategy is also quite effective: They send swarms of their smallest attack ships to kill a fleet of bigger ships to deliver the message: "This is what we can do with our weakest ships. Imagine what we'll do if you have our full attention."
Remember this fleet?

Romulan/Cardassian fleet

20 ships. 4 Warbirds, 16 Cardassian cruisers. All got turned into swiss cheese by 150 of those tiny attack ships.

The Romulans are a special case: they try to field big impressive battleships in the 24th century. In fact, that's all they appear to field and they get creamed every single time they're seen on screen in combat. I don't know how many Warbirds the Romulans have at any given time, but it seems to be measured in the dozens, not hundreds.

As much as I loathe the comparison, I'm going to use a Wet Navy example. The Empire of Japan built two massive super battleships, 70,000 tons each, the biggest pure warships ever built with the biggest guns ever mounted on a battleship. Their purpose was to outclass anything the United States could build, because they couldn't compete in terms of sheer numbers of ships. Yamato and Musashi were big and slow and helpless against aircraft. The U.S with its bigger economy just built more ships.

For the purpose of war, you can only build and maintain what your economy and resources allow. Technology has a lot to do with it, but the general rule is: the bigger your nation, the more you can build and the bigger you can build.

Now if we're talking about peacetime, and exploration and diplomacy, then you don't need troops and fighters and ships packed to the brim with the biggest heftiest weapons (although a few are nice to have). You need ships designed for a specific mission profile. You need just enough crew to fill that profile, because crew consume resources in the same way warp engines use up antimatter. So you have to concern yourself with fuel requirements, on-board supplies including food (I choose to believe replicators turn organic goo into food, not convert energy which would be inefficient and stupid), regular maintenance and repairs carried out for the duration of a mission and when docked at a base, and so forth.

For all these factors, smaller is in fact, better. You should want the simplest design to fit a mission profile. You should want to expend the least amount of energy needed to complete a mission. You should want to risk the minimum number of lives. You should want to be conservative.
 
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I think it makes sense for both worlds. Most Star Trek ships we see are either battle ships or exploration ships. A bigger battle ship just means a bigger target and more things can go wrong. Exploration ships don't need to be huge either.

In Star Wars, they have a lot of ground wars so they would need humongous transport ships to bring in a lot of these troops. But they also have a lot of smaller ships defending the big transport ships. Star Trek doesn't fight many wars on land and most of their wars are in space. So humongous transports just aren't needed. Instead you get something that's small enough to fit the need and is nimble enough that it can defend it self.
 
Blast, I changed your images to links because they were hotlinked from other websites. In the future, please use an online host like Imgur or Photobucket to upload such images to for posting. Thanks.
 
I might save the largest trek ships for Intergalactic travel at some point.

I remember the Estes catalog from 1980--and how I'd classify the different designs from most to least advanced. I loved the SS Atlantis http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bYruG8JXIsY/TU9-GEtcHpI/AAAAAAAAAYI/YFa2Hb708Js/s1600/Complete1.JPG
http://archive.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/sirius_atlantis.shtml

I loved the Andromeda. It looked like something intergalactic.
http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?17299-Estes-(Astron)-Andromeda-(K-73-or-1273)-Gallery
 
The Federation is a small galactic power. The Empire spanned the Star Wars galaxy
The SW galaxy is one far far away. Not all galaxies are the size of our and some are considerably smaller.

The entire SW galaxy could be no large than the Federation, several thousand light years..
 
I'm assuming you don't buy into anything found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy/Legends

If that's the case, then I think we have to go with a common assumption made by anyone who watches Trek and Star Wars. Most people can't even fathom how big a galaxy is, and I suggest that George Lucas invited them to assume that the Star Wars galaxy is at least as big as ours and that the Empire controlled most of it. I invite you to make the same assumption for the sake of this argument. Or you could poke holes in any argument by throwing out an unreasonable denial of a reasonable premise. That won't invalidate an argument, it's what endlessly nitpicky people do to try to trip people up so that they have to defend their ideas all the time instead of moving forward.
 
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There are so many scifi universes that have much bigger starships than Star Trek, both in literature and in TV and movies. Almost every show SINCE STNG has had bigger ships...Stargate(s), NuBSG, Andromeda, etc. So there certainly is a precedent for bigger ST ships. Are they absolutely necessary? No. however, it seems to be headed that way..JJ felt the new ship looked more epic upscaled, and of course, it does. The interior is cavernous and fantastic. The Enterprise J is several miles long.

RAMA
 
it's what endlessly nitpicky people do to try to trip people up
My personal belief that the Star Wars galaxy isn't particularly large is partially based on how fast ships seemingly can cross it. A galaxy "only" several thousand light years across will still hold a immense number of stars.
 
Hyperdrive is magic tech. Who's to say how fast it goes? Anyway, the Empire has more member worlds and more resources to draw upon than the Federation. The Galactic senate is evidence of that. Each of those senate pods has representatives from a member world.

The Federation has 150 member worlds: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_members

The Galactic Senate has over 20,000: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Senate
"In background material composed by George Lucas in 1977 for licensees of the Expanded Universe, the "Republican Senate" represented a total of 24,372 systems and elected a Chancellor to a four year term."
 
"The Federation is too small compared to the Galactic Empire."

That's quite possibly the answer to the question of why Trek ships are puny compared to Star Destroyers. Are we talking pure combat here? Then consider: The Federation is a small galactic power. The Empire spanned the Star Wars galaxy and has access to a galactic level economy and resources. This is why Imperial Star Destroyers are even considered "small" capital ships in their fictional setting.

Look at "large" galactic powers in the Trek universe: The Borg and the Dominion. The Borg have no economy to speak of, they just hoover up resources and build massive cubes to continue the process. Their ship sizes make sense for that purpose. Each cube is very probably a planetary assimilation factory. The fact that it's also a starship that can attack other ships is its secondary role.

The Dominion actually have a ship that's roughly equal to the size of a Star Destroyer. I'm sure everyone has seen this:
Dominion scaling


(I'm also assuming the DS9 finale with the 5km battleships was a scaling error and that the battleship is 1.5km long)

The Dominion fielded four or five of these battleships at the most as seen on screen during the Dominion war. Guess what they fielded lots of; the teeny tiny attack ship in the top right-hand corner. The ship that's cheap to mass-produce, can be fielded in large numbers and can take down a fleet of bigger ships like a swarm of angry wasps. In a setting where smaller ships can be extremely effective in combat, a bigger ship is just a bigger target.

The Dominion is probably large enough with enough resources and an economy that can support a large number of big scary battleships, but they still build thousands of small attack ships that pack a punch, are hard to hit, and are easily replaced. Dominion battle strategy is also quite effective: They send swarms of their smallest attack ships to kill a fleet of bigger ships to deliver the message: "This is what we can do with our weakest ships. Imagine what we'll do if you have our full attention."
Remember this fleet?

Romulan/Cardassian fleet

20 ships. 4 Warbirds, 16 Cardassian cruisers. All got turned into swiss cheese by 150 of those tiny attack ships.

The Romulans are a special case: they try to field big impressive battleships in the 24th century. In fact, that's all they appear to field and they get creamed every single time they're seen on screen in combat. I don't know how many Warbirds the Romulans have at any given time, but it seems to be measured in the dozens, not hundreds.

As much as I loathe the comparison, I'm going to use a Wet Navy example. The Empire of Japan built two massive super battleships, 70,000 tons each, the biggest pure warships ever built with the biggest guns ever mounted on a battleship. Their purpose was to outclass anything the United States could build, because they couldn't compete in terms of sheer numbers of ships. Yamato and Musashi were big and slow and helpless against aircraft. The U.S with its bigger economy just built more ships.

For the purpose of war, you can only build and maintain what your economy and resources allow. Technology has a lot to do with it, but the general rule is: the bigger your nation, the more you can build and the bigger you can build.

Now if we're talking about peacetime, and exploration and diplomacy, then you don't need troops and fighters and ships packed to the brim with the biggest heftiest weapons (although a few are nice to have). You need ships designed for a specific mission profile. You need just enough crew to fill that profile, because crew consume resources in the same way warp engines use up antimatter. So you have to concern yourself with fuel requirements, on-board supplies including food (I choose to believe replicators turn organic goo into food, not convert energy which would be inefficient and stupid), regular maintenance and repairs carried out for the duration of a mission and when docked at a base, and so forth.

For all these factors, smaller is in fact, better. You should want the simplest design to fit a mission profile. You should want to expend the least amount of energy needed to complete a mission. You should want to risk the minimum number of lives. You should want to be conservative.

Actually, we would have fielded the Montana class follow on to the Iowa class that was slower at 27 knots and would have a fourth triple turret for a total of twelve 16 inch guns vice the three triple 16 inch turrets of the Iowa and was planned on the assumption that proposed new set of Panama Canal locks had been built. It would have also fielded the under development 6"/47 caliber DP guns in ten twin turrets vice the ten twin 5"/38 caliber DP guns but was cancelled so that resources could be allocate for more aircraft carriers while the 6"/47 caliber were delayed until after WW2.

One of the great questions is how would the Montana class would have fared with twelve 16 inch guns in four triple turrets firing 2700 lb. AP shells against the nine 18 inch guns firing 3200 lb. AP shells in three triple turrets of the Yamato class in a BB/BB fight.

For their part, if the H39 class had been built by the Germans but was cancelled on the slipway, could have had eight twin turrets of 16 inch guns and used diesel engines for about 30 knots with a very

"The Federation is too small compared to the Galactic Empire."

That's quite possibly the answer to the question of why Trek ships are puny compared to Star Destroyers. Are we talking pure combat here? Then consider: The Federation is a small galactic power. The Empire spanned the Star Wars galaxy and has access to a galactic level economy and resources. This is why Imperial Star Destroyers are even considered "small" capital ships in their fictional setting.

Look at "large" galactic powers in the Trek universe: The Borg and the Dominion. The Borg have no economy to speak of, they just hoover up resources and build massive cubes to continue the process. Their ship sizes make sense for that purpose. Each cube is very probably a planetary assimilation factory. The fact that it's also a starship that can attack other ships is its secondary role.

The Dominion actually have a ship that's roughly equal to the size of a Star Destroyer. I'm sure everyone has seen this:
Dominion scaling

(I'm also assuming the DS9 finale with the 5km battleships was a scaling error and that the battleship is 1.5km long)

The Dominion fielded four or five of these battleships at the most as seen on screen during the Dominion war. Guess what they fielded lots of; the teeny tiny attack ship in the top right-hand corner. The ship that's cheap to mass-produce, can be fielded in large numbers and can take down a fleet of bigger ships like a swarm of angry wasps. In a setting where smaller ships can be extremely effective in combat, a bigger ship is just a bigger target.

The Dominion is probably large enough with enough resources and an economy that can support a large number of big scary battleships, but they still build thousands of small attack ships that pack a punch, are hard to hit, and are easily replaced. Dominion battle strategy is also quite effective: They send swarms of their smallest attack ships to kill a fleet of bigger ships to deliver the message: "This is what we can do with our weakest ships. Imagine what we'll do if you have our full attention."
Remember this fleet?

Romulan/Cardassian fleet

20 ships. 4 Warbirds, 16 Cardassian cruisers. All got turned into swiss cheese by 150 of those tiny attack ships.

The Romulans are a special case: they try to field big impressive battleships in the 24th century. In fact, that's all they appear to field and they get creamed every single time they're seen on screen in combat. I don't know how many Warbirds the Romulans have at any given time, but it seems to be measured in the dozens, not hundreds.

As much as I loathe the comparison, I'm going to use a Wet Navy example. The Empire of Japan built two massive super battleships, 70,000 tons each, the biggest pure warships ever built with the biggest guns ever mounted on a battleship. Their purpose was to outclass anything the United States could build, because they couldn't compete in terms of sheer numbers of ships. Yamato and Musashi were big and slow and helpless against aircraft. The U.S with its bigger economy just built more ships.

For the purpose of war, you can only build and maintain what your economy and resources allow. Technology has a lot to do with it, but the general rule is: the bigger your nation, the more you can build and the bigger you can build.

Now if we're talking about peacetime, and exploration and diplomacy, then you don't need troops and fighters and ships packed to the brim with the biggest heftiest weapons (although a few are nice to have). You need ships designed for a specific mission profile. You need just enough crew to fill that profile, because crew consume resources in the same way warp engines use up antimatter. So you have to concern yourself with fuel requirements, on-board supplies including food (I choose to believe replicators turn organic goo into food, not convert energy which would be inefficient and stupid), regular maintenance and repairs carried out for the duration of a mission and when docked at a base, and so forth.

For all these factors, smaller is in fact, better. You should want the simplest design to fit a mission profile. You should want to expend the least amount of energy needed to complete a mission. You should want to risk the minimum number of lives. You should want to be conservative.
Have to correct your history, the USN planned the Montana class which would have faced the Yamato class in BB/BB fight. Montana was larger than the Iowa class by several thousand tons, slower at 27 vice 33 knots and had an additional triple 16 inch gun turrets. Montana was planned in line with a proposed new set of larger locks for the Panama Canal. The twelve triple 16"/50 caliber in four vice three turrets would have fired the heavy 2700 lbs. AP shells vice the Yamato class's three triple turrets of 18 inch guns firing 3200 lbs. AP shells while Montana secondary armament would have been the under development twin 6"/47 caliber DP guns. Montana was dropped so resources could be put into more aircraft carriers, the fleet class carriers having battleship size, thus leaving leaving one of the great naval question unanswered as to how a Montana could have fared against a Yamato.
 
Excuse my error posting the above twice in the same post.
German H39 class that was cancelled on the slipway would have had eight 16 inch guns in four twin turrets with a speed of 30 knots using three screws driven by twelve very large diesel engines rated at 165,000 shp for the total plant with a range of 19,200 nautical miles at 19 knots vice the range of the Bismarck which used steam engine plant with a range of 8000 nautical miles at 19 knots.
 
In terms of Star Wars vs. Star Trek, there is also a matter of application. The Empire is not about exploration or diplomacy. They are about inspiring fear in its member worlds, ensuring complete acceptance of Imperial control.

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station." Grand Moff Tarkin

Or, to put in Colonel O'Neill terms:
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