• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Trek Ships Are Too Small Compared to Star Wars

I just watched that DS9 episode not to long ago and I remember at least two of the fighters were destroyed maybe more but two for sure. I never did understand the space fighter concept myself, it works for Star Wars but not Star Trek IMO. As for the size of trek ship they were big enough already and far more realistic at the TOS size. The big TNG ships also worked fine because there wasn't as many huge ships in the fleet but now days every ship has to be huge and it's kind of stupid.

When you think about it by the time they spend ten years building that big ship it's technology would be out of date and that's what makes Star Wars ships are unrealistic. But what do I know I'm just a red shirt!
 
I'd like to see a size comparison of a Super Star Destroyer and the ISS Charon
Apparently all Star Warsians Star Destroyers are infinitely large, infinitely powerful, and infinitely fast.

I never did understand the space fighter concept myself, it works for Star Wars but not Star Trek IMO
Essentially they're just very small starships.

and that's what makes Star Wars ships are unrealistic
The big problem for me it there's no given reason that they're the size they are, Snook's ship is huge ... but why?

And the same goes for the Abram-verse Enterprise, there doesn't seem to be a reason it's so large. If you look at a modern day Aircraft carrier, it's the size it is for well understood reasons.
 
Last edited:
Agreed Tenacity. They did it just for the cool factor so people would say look how big the ship is now. The problem with that is the average non trek fan wouldn't know any better so all they really did was aggravate some of the die hard fans by making the ship bigger just for the hell of it, me being one of them!
 
I just watched that DS9 episode not to long ago and I remember at least two of the fighters were destroyed maybe more but two for sure. I never did understand the space fighter concept myself, it works for Star Wars but not Star Trek IMO. As for the size of trek ship they were big enough already and far more realistic at the TOS size. The big TNG ships also worked fine because there wasn't as many huge ships in the fleet but now days every ship has to be huge and it's kind of stupid.

When you think about it by the time they spend ten years building that big ship it's technology would be out of date and that's what makes Star Wars ships are unrealistic. But what do I know I'm just a red shirt!
Fighters are likely an expedient way to bulk up raw numbers to spread enemy fire. Also, weapons in Trek seem to maintain fairly effective firepower at small scales, while shields at small scale seem to drop in power drastically, so fighters in groups are offensively useful but can't last very long, which seems to be the logic behind the Bird of Prey and Jem'Hadar fighter while carrying far more firepower and working independently or in groups. We also see runabouts individually effective against Jem'Hadar fighters, while small craft in groups are effective against the Galor class.

That could mean fighters were introduced specifically to offer a flexible rapid response to the less advanced and smaller vessels Starfleet faces. That leaves the larger ships to focus on equals and superiors and not suffer as much from reduced space to maneuver in the knife fights common in Trek. But, that's only workable in a fleet setting, so normally Federation fighters would only make sense as something like a police cutter. Even a moderately well off colony could probably afford a few of them to protect a solar system and drive off just about any pirate ship, which makes sense given the Maquis were able to afford those craft, even if they were courier retrofits, as well as slightly larger ones.
 
That could mean fighters were introduced specifically to offer a flexible rapid response to the less advanced and smaller vessels Starfleet faces. That leaves the larger ships to focus on equals and superiors and not suffer as much from reduced space to maneuver in the knife fights common in Trek. But, that's only workable in a fleet setting, so normally Federation fighters would only make sense as something like a police cutter. Even a moderately well off colony could probably afford a few of them to protect a solar system and drive off just about any pirate ship, which makes sense given the Maquis were able to afford those craft, even if they were courier retrofits, as well as slightly larger ones.

I'd say the larger raider (Ju'day or Condor class) like Chakotay's Val Jean would be a better candiate for a patrol cutter, rather than the smaller two-person fighters used in The Maquis or Preemptive Strike.
 
Fighters are likely an expedient way to bulk up raw numbers to spread enemy fire.

Yep. Let's assume a Galaxy-Class ship can fire a spread of ten torpedoes per salvo. Ten fighters, each with 1 torpedo, can do the same but the enemy is unable to focus fire on them and they can select multiple attack vectors hampering the ability of the target to evade. Same with phasers - they might lack the overall punch of a Type X array but they can engage all four shield quadrants at once, whereas against a single ship you can maneuver to present your strongest shields to their bearing.
 
But by the same token, a Galaxy class ship can fire ten torpedoes and instantly destroy ten fighters.
 
It's a response to the Narada.

But the thing is, in the Starfleet that built Pike's new flagship, nobody believes in the Narada. Not even Pike himself, the man who wrote a frigging dissertation on the subject, remembers the incident for its extremely distinctive, rare and prominent identifying element of a thunderstorm in space, despite first Chekov and then Kirk slapping him in the face with it like a Fish Slap Dancer on acid.

Anyway, every ship in that Starfleet is that big to begin with, including the one that first met the Narada. And said ship already fared exactly as well in combat with the Narada as did this "improved" modern ship!

Fighters are likely an expedient way to bulk up raw numbers to spread enemy fire.

What benefit is there in spreading enemy fire? It only takes one phaser beam to hit and destroy a fighter in "Sacrifice of Angels", even if the hit rate is not quite the usual 100%, whilst the firing of multiple beams simultaneously is also demonstrably possible.

Single hits, this time with 100% accuracy, didn't work quite that well against small craft in "Preemptive Strike" yet - but back then, a Cardassian death ray couldn't penetrate a wet paper bag without major assistance, and Evek's ship was already shot to hell at that point anyway.

In contrast, the ship the fighters in "Sacrifice of Angels" were bombarding didn't seem to mind nine waves of fighter attacks much. She faked damage to provide an excuse for the Dominion to "break formation" and open a trap for the Alpha Axis ships to enter.

Also, weapons in Trek seem to maintain fairly effective firepower at small scales, while shields at small scale seem to drop in power drastically, so fighters in groups are offensively useful but can't last very long, which seems to be the logic behind the Bird of Prey and Jem'Hadar fighter while carrying far more firepower and working independently or in groups.

But the Odyssey didn't appear to manage to destroy any Jem'Hadar fighters in her final battle, despite Starfleet-standard death rays and 100% hit rate. Was Keogh just pulling his punches?

We also see runabouts individually effective against Jem'Hadar fighters

In what sense? They did zip to help the Odyssey, say. The one obvious kill, from "Treachery, Faith and the Great River", depended on the first of those three things, with Weyoun pointing out a weak spot. There never was a repeat of that feat.

while small craft in groups are effective against the Galor class.

In "Sacrifice of Angels", we see them being utterly ineffective, to the point that the enemy has to help them achieve their tactical goal. (We see gasoline explosions, which the preceding DS9 episodes defined as "shields holding", and then we see people inside shaking and then grinning...)

In "Preemptive Strike", a swarm that features perhaps two of the Starfleet fighters and a number of the larger Bajoran winged fighting craft plus assorted others (including the smaller version of the Maquis Raider) manages to hurt a Galor.

Three BoPs (of which one might theoretically be bigger than the other two) make shorter work of a Galor in "Way of the Warrior", though. I can't readily see any party going for attack craft smaller than that if they want to do good damage to starships, even weakling Cardassian ones.

That could mean fighters were introduced specifically to offer a flexible rapid response to the less advanced and smaller vessels Starfleet faces.

Yet Bashir and O'Brien seem to think it literally (literally literally!) suicide to send in the fighters, even exclusively against Cardassian vessels.

Perhaps "attack" in Starfleet instead means the same as in today's Anglophile air forces - ground attack? This is the use the Maquis originally have in mind for the Starfleet "attack" fightercraft in their possession.

Even a moderately well off colony could probably afford a few of them to protect a solar system and drive off just about any pirate ship, which makes sense given the Maquis were able to afford those craft, even if they were courier retrofits, as well as slightly larger ones.

Hard to see these attack fighters as couriers, with their cramped Type 15 shuttlepod cabins and implied lack of endurance. But colonies might well enjoy having craft that can be serviced on the ground and then deployed on various insystem errands, including those calling for rapid deployment at warp. Any good against pirates? Well, certainly if those pirates try and land or beam down in order to pillage! If they only come to bombard (odd behavior for pirates), then their ship probably is too much for the fighters to chew, which might be why we never hear of colonies defending themselves against bombardment or similar attack with fightercraft.

Timo Saloniemi
 
What does one need to "courier" in Star Trek anyway?

You can talk to people over realtime subspace channels in most circumstances, send data, and replicate most physical objects.

One reason for a courier-type ship would be to deliver a person, or an item which cannot be replicated and is beyond transporter range - Ambassador K'Ehleyr in her mad torpedo coffin, or Spock's TMP shuttle for example.

I think of those little Maquis "courier" ships as similar to Bajoran impulse ships - designed to get people around a solar system, but not really interstellar travel. I assume they would have shuttlecraft-level warp capability to get between the planets of the DMZ.
 
The Maquis ship introduced in "Preemptive Strike" would be perfect for couriering - the generic Alien Shuttle cabin would allow for the carrying of passengers or high value cargo or abstract "research results" of the sort that were beamed up in boxes in the teaser of "Dagger of the Mind", and the stated performance of a courier (as with the unseen Peregrine that can match a Danube at warp in "Heart of Stone") would be something the Maquis design with its big warp cowlings could well be attributed with.

How small can one get and still do couriering? Sarek's big runabout (or "cruiser") in DSC seems interstellar enough, while the DSC shuttles are not specified as doing more than warp 1 but are attributed with "couriering" prisoners and admirals across seemingly significant distances. Perhaps those were very short significant distances, though, and back then a courier would still need big nacelles like on Spock's sled.

We're still a step or two away from the Star Wars reality where even teeny weeny fighters can go to hyperspace except when they can't...

Timo Saloniemi
 
But the thing is, in the Starfleet that built Pike's new flagship, nobody believes in the Narada. Not even Pike himself, the man who wrote a frigging dissertation on the subject, remembers the incident for its extremely distinctive, rare and prominent identifying element of a thunderstorm in space, despite first Chekov and then Kirk slapping him in the face with it like a Fish Slap Dancer on acid.
It's not that nobody believes in it-it's that it hadn't been seen in 26 years. So, Starfleet ramps up tech in response to a threat that never appears again.
 
What is ramped up, though? Firepower? But Pike's ship never fires on the Narada so we learn nothing pertinent. Shielding? But Pike's ship is just as vulnerable to the first missile from Nero as Robau's was (with shields definitely raised whereas there's in theory some doubt on whether Robau's were up). Ability to dodge? None witnessed. Ability to shoot down those missiles? Both ships had a perfect score there as long as the missiles were headed at some third party.

So, considering Pike's ship isn't bigger than Robau's, it seems all Starfleet ramped up was the size of shuttlecraft. And even those were Academy rather than Enterprise shuttles, it seems.

Since there are no holograms in the 2258 we see, but there are plenty in the 2256 we see, perhaps Starfleet in the Nero-altered timeline skipped the adoption of certain nice-to-have civilian gadgetry and concentrated on advanced combat hardware. Or then Nero made Starfleet stop R&D in general?

Timo Saloniemi
 
And all it took was a couple of Proton Torpedoes fired from a magical farm-boy in order to make that thing go boom. I hope someone lost their job because of it. Things aren't build to last these days...

To be fair, it was a 2 meter wide exhaust port, on a space station the size of a small moon... it was doing exactly what it was designed to do, vent exhaust from the central reactor. What were the chances that someone, ANYONE could fire a pair of proton torpedoes and go down the shaft of that thing without hitting the sidewalls? It took a random kid who was the son of the greatest force-user in the galaxy to pull it off.

I say the engineer who designed that exhaust port gets hassled too much for that.
 
...Of course, with every heroic feat comes a whole bundle of claims of Idunnit. Just watching A New Hope, one might think that the Rebel wise guys at Yavin IV cleverly figured out the single accidental weakness in the station in the couple of hours allotted. Heck, they even state as much!

But turns out, as per Rogue One, that the weakness was actually built in and carefully pointed out to the Rebels by the man who designed the whole thing in the first place...

Although no doubt the upcoming Young Solo film will reveal that in fact Han Solo engineered the whole thing from the get-go in order to get a chance to woo Leia. Until Chewie takes the credit for being the brains of the outfit.

Timo Saloniemi
 
To be fair, it was a 2 meter wide exhaust port, on a space station the size of a small moon... it was doing exactly what it was designed to do, vent exhaust from the central reactor. What were the chances that someone, ANYONE could fire a pair of proton torpedoes and go down the shaft of that thing without hitting the sidewalls? It took a random kid who was the son of the greatest force-user in the galaxy to pull it off.

I say the engineer who designed that exhaust port gets hassled too much for that.

And most of the fighters who participated were destroyed, with Luke getting lucky that Han flew in to save him. :D The Empire logically geared most of the defenses around a capital fleet attack, since they assumed that would be the minimum amount of firepower needed to seriously damage the Death Star. The second Death Star, had it been completed fully, would have eliminated the exhaust vents as a potential weak spot and improved other things.
 
^ Yet they still made the exhaust port large enough to fly a squadron of fighters into the reactor core!
 
What is ramped up, though?
Faster rate of fire, more personnel, larger power plant. Since they never encountered the ship, it is hard to say if they never knew what actually would helped them. Instead of going with smaller designs, i.e. the original Constitution, or Miranda class, Starfleet opted to remain larger like the Kelvin.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top