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Lord Garth
Guest
Hi guys.
Trek Novel Elements in the Movie
- Thread starter seigezunt
- Start date
Maybe you should reread your own posts?
I'm not going to be throwing away my ST novels because you tell me their portrayal of Andorian culture is wrong, either.
I'm sure that feminists, the gay and lesbian community, geishas and female ministers of religion would all tell you that the concepts of human gender and culture are intrinsically blurred, and that sweeping statements (and "proven" arguments) simply cannot be made about such matters.
Project much?
Which of course doesn't prove anything but that there are differences of opinion. It is a sweeping statement, saying that sweeping statement are always wrong. You have to conceed that SOME "sweeping statments" might... just MIGHT... have a kernel of truth to 'em.Therin of Andor said:
Maybe you should reread your own posts?
I'm not going to be throwing away my ST novels because you tell me their portrayal of Andorian culture is wrong, either.
I'm sure that feminists, the gay and lesbian community, geishas and female ministers of religion would all tell you that the concepts of human gender and culture are intrinsically blurred, and that sweeping statements (and "proven" arguments) simply cannot be made about such matters.
I've been enjoying watching the flame-war-in-the-making in this thread. But c'mon, guys...
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ANDORIAN. THEY DON'T EXIST.
Hence, debates over whether there are two genders of Andorians and just different "gender roles" or whether there are actually four distinct biological-function genders is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT AND TRIVIAL.
And awfully hard to justify getting all torqued up about, don'cha think?
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Lord Garth
Guest
They destroyed the simulator and me with it.
Hopefully 3D Master recognizes this is my way of cutting him a break when I could've and should've handed him a warning for calling people idiots. I'm assuming he said it out of anger, lost his cool in spite of his points, and that it won't happen again; which in turn means everyone else will back off and policy won't have to be enforced.
How about it?
Hopefully 3D Master recognizes this is my way of cutting him a break when I could've and should've handed him a warning for calling people idiots. I'm assuming he said it out of anger, lost his cool in spite of his points, and that it won't happen again; which in turn means everyone else will back off and policy won't have to be enforced.
How about it?
You know, if you gut the Sulu/Mandala Sue/Hunter Sue sub-plot bullshit and stick to the main plot, The Entropy Effect would make a great movie.
I'll let you tell that to the feminists, the gay and lesbian community, geishas and female ministers of religion. My point about sweeping statements is that they don't allow for hundreds of possible exceptions to the rule that may arise.
omigosh. I can't believe it... sob.
How about Santa? The Tooth Fairy? John-Boy Walton?
Except that what was an innovative plot in 1981, has become old hat now: time travel, and the death of Kirk, are pretty much well-trodden ground by now.
Incidentally, the Simon & Schuster Audioworks production of "The Entropy Effect" eliminates the Sulu subplot, which is why they used the Kirk/Spock cover of "Triangle" as the audio box art rather than the original Kirk/Spock/mustachioed Sulu novel cover.
It's really a pity that there seems to be no way of discussing it without you insulting people.
We don't know what exactly Data is looking for. That is the point in searching inspiration: Data himself would not know exactly what he is looking for until he finds it. It might very well be that he found something relevantly different to human culture in an Andorian marriage custom which is based on four genders, even if it could be deemed structurally similar to one-male-one-female marriages. The already mentioned "unless" could even imply this. In other words, Data could be saying: "The Andorians marriage customs are quite similar to many human marriage customs, with one of every Gender. BUT they have an interesting exception, which is ..."
The point is that from that line, we don't know. the could have 27 sexes and 12 genders, or the other way round. But they could have 4 of both as well. Your theory is but one version of what Datas words could have meant. I do get it (since I'm not dense), I just happen to disagree with your line of argumentation.
Oh, and if you call me an idiot again, I will be forced to unleash my ice power against you.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
No, I'm not. I'm saying different arguments supporting the same point. You seem to miss "when already proven wrong" from my statements.
And that is an element I do NOT want to see.
Except for that annoying fact that what books say, doesn't matter one little bit. The show trumps the books all the time.
I AM, I do not want to see the four genders in the movie. Everyone else suddenly turned it into a debate on whether the books or the show is right. It's the show.
I don't have to, I know what's in them. You on the other hand, should reread what you wrote. Let me recap:
Me: "From the scene..."
You: "You can't take that out of one sentence."
Me: "I didn't take it out of one sentence, I took it out of the entire scene and episode and the context in which things were said."
You: "You can't take that out of one sentence."
Me: "Are you incapable of reading? I already said multiple times over I did not take it out of one sentence! Once explicitly so."
I'm not going to be throwing away my ST novels because you tell me their portrayal of Andorian culture is wrong, either.
I don't care.
Which has got nothing to do with anything, but eh.
I do not insult people. I state facts. Read above on the little recap for one such example.
Than he would be saying that, now would he? In fact, we know pretty well what Data is doing. He's said. He's simply researching marriage practices because people he knows are getting married - he's done similar before. He's no looking for anything, he's simply stating some interesting practices. He's puzzled at things he's found, as he's already mentioned another species with a different practice. The four Andorians is then the interesting fact, that's what he's lead with, not the unless.
Wow. Just wow.
Let me repeat it AGAIN for the umpteenth time:
I'M NOT TAKING IT FROM JUST THAT LINE!!
HAVE YOU READ IT THIS TIME YET!?
I'm taking it from the ENTIRE scene and episode.
Superman
Fleet Captain
Hey Alex,
Not sure if we're thinking of the same comic, but there was and old double-sized DC Star Trek comic (a one shot) that showed Kirk getting command of the Enterprise from Pike in a ceremony that involved Pike turning over a ceremonial sword to Kirk as a symbol of command.
I always thought that was a beautiful tradition and one that would be awesome to see in this film.
The issue was set after Star Trek III, and Kirk and his crew had command of the Excelsior. Saavik had taken Spock's place on the Enterprise, and he was in command of another ship at the time.
Eventually, of course, all was "righted" to line-up with Star Trek IV.
\S/
OK, let's just structurally analyse your position.
Assertion 1: We know from the Episode that Data is researching the marriage traditions of different species, especially looking for interesting differences from human customs.
Assertion 2: One such interesting difference would be if the number of members of a marriage does not correspond to the number of sexes of the relevant species.
From these two assertions, however, it doesn't follow that the reason why Data finds the Andorians interesting is the one represented by assertion 2. There could be numerous other reasons for Datas interest in the Andorians. Goven that we might assume that homosexual marriage is quite common among humans in the 24th ct., one could even argue that what Data finds interesting might be the possible fact that the Andorians insist on a marriage consisting of exactly one member of each sex ("unless ..."). Or the Andorians might have a very complex system of social roles attached to marriage. Maybe after marrying, social roles change vastly for some of the wifes/husbands involved.
The mistake you are making is quite similar to a classical case of flawed logic:
if
1. Fred is an amimal
and
2. All mules are animals,
it doesn't follow that
3. Fred is a mule.
(to clarify with regards to your argumentation:
if
1. Data looks for different marital traditions
and
2. One such difference would be more or less marriage partners than sexes,
it doesn't follow that
3. Data was interested in the Andorians because they have more or less marriage partners than sexes.)
Therefore, your assertion that the Andorians don't have 4 sexes is only possibly true, not necessarily.
I'm not interested in "nerding". I just can't stand it if people present such bad arguments. I frankly don't care for the exact implications of a few words in one random trek episode. However, I would care for a message board where it is possible to rationally discuss a topic (any topic) without entering a shouting and name calling contest.
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Lord Garth
Guest
I chose not to warn 3D Master, so I'm letting you off the hook.
However, no one should cross the line again. That's it. Next time I actually will hand out warnings to anyone who crosses the line.
Now, for anyone who wants to keep up this discussion about Andorians and multiple genders, it seems like it's grown into a topic of its own and it makes more start up a new thread in GTD or Trek Lit.
However, no one should cross the line again. That's it. Next time I actually will hand out warnings to anyone who crosses the line.
Now, for anyone who wants to keep up this discussion about Andorians and multiple genders, it seems like it's grown into a topic of its own and it makes more start up a new thread in GTD or Trek Lit.
