Trek Novel Elements in the Movie

[seigezunt]

Now this is pure fantasy, will close to zero chance of any fulfillment, and I know it ain't canon (whatever) but are there any elements of any of the trek novels from over the years that you feel would have been good to include in this "early adventure" movie?

Any elements/stories from novels that you've enjoyed that it will be hard to see contradicted by the movie?

I know it's already expected the newest Shatnerverse novel will be out of step with the film, and I assume some of the novelized early adventures will also be blown away. Any regrets?

 

[SeamusShameless]

I like the idea of the worldship aliens from ENTERPRISE The First Adventure who were so advanced that the Enterprise crew mistook them for childlike primitives. I also like the idea of Starfleet not putting their full trust in the "young" Jim Kirk, and his first mission in command of the Enterprise convinces them to assign the ship to the exploratory branch.

 

[23skidoo]

Not necessarily from the novels, but in one of the comic books (I believe it was Marvel's Early Voyages, but I might be wrong) we saw Pike handing over command to Kirk. I really hope we get to see something similar in the new movie. As for who could play Pike, I was thinking George Clooney as he has the same acting style and general appearance as Jeff Hunter.

Cheers!

Alex

 

[Who_Trek]

The fiction-established lifestyle of the Andorians. It really annoyed me it was totally ignored in the ENT episodes. (Yes, I know that it's been set straight in the books (The Good That Men Do, I think.))

 

[Capt_Jason]

"Strangers from the Sky" should have been the Star Trek First Contact we got instead.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Who_Trek said:
The fiction-established lifestyle of the Andorians. It really annoyed me it was totally ignored in the ENT episodes.

Ah, but did it totally ignore everything? In "The Andorian Incident", the character of Tholos was played quite androgynously, and he's still with Shran in their next episode. The two prominent females, Tarah and Talas, were played very differently. I could easily see those four Andorian types in the one bondgroup.

Capt Jason said:
"Strangers from the Sky" should have been the Star Trek First Contact we got instead.

Except that "Strangers..." was a secret First Contact with Vulcans, like the one in "Carpenter Street" (ENT).

 

[3D Master]

Who_Trek said:
The fiction-established lifestyle of the Andorians. It really annoyed me it was totally ignored in the ENT episodes.

No, thank god. The four genders is contradicted by Data's words about Andorians anyway. It should be established in the new stuff they are men and women and they marry in fours. They should take the RPG book "Amongst the clans" as the basis for the Romulans on screen. Now there's a rich description of the Andorian culture.

 

[Therin of Andor]

3D Master said:
The four genders is contradicted by Data's words about Andorians anyway.

Huh? The novels take their lead from Data's vague reference to "... Andorians marry in groups of four - unless..."

Totally open to interpretation. How is it a contradiction?

It should be established in the new stuff they are men and women and they marry in fours.

To outworlders, it appears to be exactly that. What's the problem?

 

[3D Master]

Therin of Andor said:

3D Master said:
The four genders is contradicted by Data's words about Andorians anyway.

Huh? The novels take their lead from Data's vague reference to "... Andorians marry in groups of four - unless..."

Totally open to interpretation. How is it a contradiction?

It's not totally open to interpretation. Data was naming different cultural mores on marrying that he had done research into. If there are four genders, marrying with four is not a different cultural more - it's the exact same cultural more: one of each gender required for procreation.

It should be established in the new stuff they are men and women and they marry in fours.

To outworlders, it appears to be exactly that. What's the problem?

What it appear to be doesn't matter. What the problem is, that we have another culture where you "couple" with one of each gender required for procreation and no more. It's time we have a species in the Federation that does it differently.

 

[Timo]

So you find greater alienness in two genders rather than four? By all means do so - but it's hardly something that would appear alien to the general audiences if made a plot point in the new movie.

But certainly it is gross exaggeration at the very least to say that Data "contradicted" the novel take on those genders...

Somehow I think exotic sex habits are not the thing I would want explored let alone emphasized in the new movie. If there's any hope for it at all, it lies in the "back to basics" approach; any gimmick, be it cultural or technological, would detract from that.

That in mind, the novel elements I'd like to see would be the ones dealing with our once-again-to-be-exploited TOS heroes directly. Joanna McCoy, Sybok's mom, Kirk's elusive dad and his early relationship to Robert April; anything to paint our heroes as people, as opposed to icons (of Starfleet, or of television). But I'm afraid there won't be time for that unless the basic plot is extremely straightforward. So I think I'll default on something plot-related, like having the Rihannsu or the Fordian Klingons as the secretive villains...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

3D Master said:
It's not totally open to interpretation. Data was naming different cultural mores on marrying that he had done research into. If there are four genders, marrying with four is not a different cultural more - it's the exact same cultural more: one of each gender required for procreation.

I'm glad for you that you can read all that out of "Andorians marry in groups of four - unless..." In fact, that stray "unless" might lend itself to another set of possibilities. The point is, it was made tantalizingly vague on purpose.

 

[Frontier]

I would love for Trek XI to be an adaptation of Shatner's original trilogy of Trek novels - Ashes of Eden, Return, Avenger. Take elements from all three and mold one story out of it. Act 1 could see the 1701-A meeting her end, give us Kirk, Spock and crew one last brief time, and introduce Tellani, act 2 could show Kirk's resurrection, and act 3 could show Kirk and Spock joining with Picard and others to combat some threat.

 

[T'Cal]

For any scenes that show Jim Kirk in his mid-teens, the writers could do a lot worse than in "Best Destiny" in which he was depicted as a stubborn, defiant brat angry at his workaholic Starfleet dad. Jim began to lose his angst once he got into space for the first time, which was not pleasant.

 

[3D Master]

Therin of Andor said:
I'm glad for you that you can read all that out of "Andorians marry in groups of four - unless..." In fact, that stray "unless" might lend itself to another set of possibilities. The point is, it was made tantalizingly vague on purpose.

NO, YOU BLOODY DENSE... GAAH.

I did NOT get that of that one single sentence, I got that from the entire scene and episode. IT'S CALLED CONTEXT!! Look it up! And NOOOOOOO, it was not made tantalizingly vague on purpose, there was nothing vague about it. They had a cultural difference, IT'S THAT SIMPLE! The only thing left vague is the exact nature of the culture, and the exact nature of the exception. Whether or not it is biological difference, is most definitely NOT left vague.

Timo said:
So you find greater alienness in two genders rather than four? By all means do so - but it's hardly something that would appear alien to the general audiences if made a plot point in the new movie.

Greater CULLTURAL alienness YES. The genders is a greater BIOLOGICAL alienness. If they're four genders and it is that the average viewers is going, "Marriage with four people!? The outrageously ungodl-... oh, wait, four genders? Oh, yeah, then." It's the same culture - one of each gender required for procreation.

But certainly it is gross exaggeration at the very least to say that Data "contradicted" the novel take on those genders...

No, it is not. Again: CONTEXT!! The line itself is not; but if you add the CONTEXT in which that line is spoken, it DOES.

Somehow I think exotic sex habits are not the thing I would want explored let alone emphasized in the new movie. If there's any hope for it at all, it lies in the "back to basics" approach; any gimmick, be it cultural or technological, would detract from that.

Jesus, mother of god. Go watch the episode again. Data is researching different philosophies/cultures on mating/marriage. How difficult is it to understand that 4 genders is not a cultural difference, but a BIOLOGICAL difference! If the Andorians were 4 genders, then there's no cultural difference AT ALL. Which means that Data WOULD NOT HAVE MENTIONED THEM!!!

And they don't need to explore it, they don't even need to mention it, an Andorian doesn't even need to be in the movie; as long as when the Andorians are there they're not 4 genders.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well, it's Marco Palmieri you should be yelling at maybe, not us.

This argument is as bizarre as the Andorian listserv I once belonged to, whose members rejected any aspect of Eileen Palestine's unique extrapolations of an Andorian partial exoskeleton as unbelievable - because these avid Andorian fans claimed that human-sized aliens with exoskeletons would be too heavy to stand up.

You can call "context" as loud as you like, but you can't read so much into one line and categorically call everyone else's interpretations incorrect and not expect some return arguments.

The four Andorian genders have helped the DS9 Relaunch - and the rest of ST fiction - in many dramatic ways, but it's been done so as to be as flexible to forthcoming canon as it can.

 

[Dradin]

3D Master said:

Therin of Andor said:
I'm glad for you that you can read all that out of "Andorians marry in groups of four - unless..." In fact, that stray "unless" might lend itself to another set of possibilities. The point is, it was made tantalizingly vague on purpose.

NO, YOU BLOODY DENSE... GAAH.

I did NOT get that of that one single sentence, I got that from the entire scene and episode. IT'S CALLED CONTEXT!! Look it up! And NOOOOOOO, it was not made tantalizingly vague on purpose, there was nothing vague about it. They had a cultural difference, IT'S THAT SIMPLE! The only thing left vague is the exact nature of the culture, and the exact nature of the exception. Whether or not it is biological difference, is most definitely NOT left vague.

Timo said:
So you find greater alienness in two genders rather than four? By all means do so - but it's hardly something that would appear alien to the general audiences if made a plot point in the new movie.

Greater CULLTURAL alienness YES. The genders is a greater BIOLOGICAL alienness. If they're four genders and it is that the average viewers is going, "Marriage with four people!? The outrageously ungodl-... oh, wait, four genders? Oh, yeah, then." It's the same culture - one of each gender required for procreation.

But certainly it is gross exaggeration at the very least to say that Data "contradicted" the novel take on those genders...

No, it is not. Again: CONTEXT!! The line itself is not; but if you add the CONTEXT in which that line is spoken, it DOES.

Somehow I think exotic sex habits are not the thing I would want explored let alone emphasized in the new movie. If there's any hope for it at all, it lies in the "back to basics" approach; any gimmick, be it cultural or technological, would detract from that.

Jesus, mother of god. Go watch the episode again. Data is researching different philosophies/cultures on mating/marriage. How difficult is it to understand that 4 genders is not a cultural difference, but a BIOLOGICAL difference! If the Andorians were 4 genders, then there's no cultural difference AT ALL. Which means that Data WOULD NOT HAVE MENTIONED THEM!!!

And they don't need to explore it, they don't even need to mention it, an Andorian doesn't even need to be in the movie; as long as when the Andorians are there they're not 4 genders.

Excuse me, but: what's all the shouting and name-calling about? Did I miss something while reading the whole thread?

Anyway, your argument is flawed. Most human cultures are founded upon the notion of two genders. Thus, if a culture has marriages consisting of four individuals founded on for genders, this still IS a cultural difference. Your argument is like saying that 2 equals for, because two can be expressed by 1+1 and 4 by 2+2. While the operation of adding similar numbers is the same, the result is obviously different.

Furthermore, marriage in human culture must not necessarily be defined as "one of each gender". It could much more easily defined as "a man and a women" or "two people who are deeple in love with each other" (regardless of gender).

Data's words are definitely open to interpretation. You won't change that by being rude.

 

[CaptainWacky]

The Andorians should have ice-powers in the new movie.

 

[3D Master]

Therin of Andor said:
You can call "context" as loud as you like, but you can't read so much into one line and categorically call everyone else's interpretations incorrect and not expect some return arguments.

JESUS, MOTHERFUCKING GOD!

AGAIN!!!

READ!!!

I AM NOT READING IT INTO ONE LINE. I'M READING IT OUT THE ENTIRE SCENE!!!

JESUS, MOTHER OF GOD!

 

[3D Master]

Dradin said:
Excuse me, but: what's all the shouting and name-calling about? Did I miss something while reading the whole thread?

I can't stand people who can't read and come to message boards, or refuse to read, continuously saying the same thing over and over again, even if it's already been proved wrong, or even outright keep faulty quoting the same thing and thing that by being dense and just keep repeating their flawed arguments they think they can win the argument by being obnoxious.

Anyway, your argument is flawed. Most human cultures are founded upon the notion of two genders. Thus, if a culture has marriages consisting of four individuals founded on for genders, this still IS a cultural difference. Your argument is like saying that 2 equals for, because two can be expressed by 1+1 and 4 by 2+2. While the operation of adding similar numbers is the same, the result is obviously different.

No, you idiot. The culture, the practices on marriage are exactly the same. Data is not talking about the ENTIRE culture and how that would be different with multiple genders, he's talking about MARRIAGE practices. One of each gender required for procreation - is NOT different from the marriage going on that prompted him to start his ivestigation. Plain, and simple.

Furthermore, marriage in human culture must not necessarily be defined as "one of each gender". It could much more easily defined as "a man and a women" or "two people who are deeple in love with each other" (regardless of gender).

My god, you're a bloody idiot, not to mention dense beyond all reason. Why is it two men, and two women similarly - because it's influenced by one male and one female. Further, they are minority differences. Data is trying to understand how different species and cultures come to different practices regarding marriages, and how and why these practices exist. That means he's not taking minorities who choose, because they can do so through freedom, to be different, (although possibly that too, especially if there's a whole subgroup), but it's not (yet) important in what he's discussing at the time. Four genders needed for procreation, four people in a marriage - one of each to procreate - then is the same as the couple that is marrying, meaning he wouldn't be mentioning it. He's naming things that are significantly different to warrant pondering and mentioning - one of each gender required for procreation, is not it.

Data's words are definitely open to interpretation.

Sure, but not on 4 genders for Andorians.

You won't change that by being rude.

I don't consider speaking the truth rude. What I find rude, is completely ignoring what someone wrote, and then restating the same thing ad nausium even when already shown to be wrong, just to try to win by being obnoxiously stubborn.

 

[SeamusShameless]

You're being obnoxiously stubborn and repeating the same thing over and over, so shut the fuck up already. This thread is about what novel elements people would like to see in the film, not whether Andorians have four genders or not. And by the way, there's more evidence for four Andorian genders presented in the books than there is presented for two genders in the show. Quit belly-aching over trivial matters and pay attention to what the thread is about.