T'Pel t'problems

[7thsealord]

In 3x07 "The Enemy", the episode where Geordi is trapped on a planet with a Romulan, they try to save another dying Romulan. The Romulan needs a transfusion, but Worf is the only suitable donor. No other Vulcan onboard is a match.

It's interesting that a Klingon would be a suitable donor, when a Vulcan is not. This suggests that Romulans are biological different from Vulcans. They are a species, not only a nationality.

Noting also that, in 'Birthright', it was established that Klingons and Romulans can interbreed. Without, from all indications, any major medical intervention.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Noting also that, in 'Birthright', it was established that Klingons and Romulans can interbreed. Without, from all indications, any major medical intervention.

Well, we know they can breed, the difficulty in question was at best undisclosed.

 

[7thsealord]

Noting also that, in 'Birthright', it was established that Klingons and Romulans can interbreed. Without, from all indications, any major medical intervention.

Well, we know they can breed, the difficulty in question was at best undisclosed.

True. But it was an isolated place with, from all accounts, not exactly an excess of faciltiies. IMO, expecting a POW camp's hospital to handle specialized fields like gene-tinkering and/or advanced obstetrics is more than a little out there. Yet, there was a number of quite healthy Klingon-Romulan hybrids.

All of which suggests very strongly to me that the successful interbreeding of Klingons and Romulans requires minimal medical intervention - the biggest hurdle is the mental one.

 

[Timo]

Then again, Cardassians and Bajorans appear to crossbreed "accidentally", too. Unless we assume all of Dukat's Bajoran mistresses deliberately took extensive treatments to create the "accidental" babies in question. This might well be used to argue that effortless crossbreeding in Trek is a rule rather than a sign of a particularly close biological relationship - that it's a central design feature in the great plan of the proto-humanoids of TNG "The Chase" fame.

It's interesting that a Klingon would be a suitable donor, when a Vulcan is not. This suggests that Romulans are biological different from Vulcans.

I don't see the implication. We never heard that a Vulcan couldn't be a recipient of Klingon ribosomes, after all. And FWIW, Crusher did test compatibility with Vulcans, humans and quite possibly a few other onboard species as well, going as far as quoting humans before Vulcans as a possibility. Apparently, then, the medical wisdom of the 24th century says that ribosome transfer is not species-specific, but individual-specific...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nociod]

While it is interesting that a Klingon would be able to donate ribosomes to a Romulan, I don't think it's proof enough that Vulcans and Romulans are radically different physiologically. At most, it establishes that no Vulcans on board (and how many would that be?) were compatible donors to that particular Romulan.

I don't see the implication. We never heard that a Vulcan couldn't be a recipient of Klingon ribosomes, after all. And FWIW, Crusher did test compatibility with Vulcans, humans and quite possibly a few other onboard species as well, going as far as quoting humans before Vulcans as a possibility. Apparently, then, the medical wisdom of the 24th century says that ribosome transfer is not species-specific, but individual-specific...
Timo Saloniemi

I have to concede that you have valid points.

That no one else was suitable as a ribosome donor, could be akin to someone with an O+ blood type needing a blood transfusion, and the only humans available had A+ and B+ blood types. No one would say that the O+ patient wasn’t human because he couldn’t get transfusions from the other humans.

Guess I didn’t think things through properly.

 

[Timo]

Ribosome transfusion is such an "out there" idea that I doubt its specs and merits could be objectively argued. On one hand, it makes sense that this highly complex cell organ would be difficult to synthesize even with the amazing replicators; on the other hand, if the advanced technology exists to insert donated ribosomes into the cells, one would think the Romulan's life could be saved by a number of other technologies that are a tad less fantastic...

Then again, if Trek medicine can do whole-body ribosome transfer, it sounds a tad more believable that it can also remake the entire genetic structure of a patient as in "Identity Crisis" or "Genesis". Funny how in "Genesis", the entire crew of over a thousand got the treatment without donor/compatibility problems, though!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

The whole T'Pel thing just didn't work for me.

The Romulans supposedly arranged this entire meeting in the neutral zone, with several warbirds nearby, and this presumably novel transporter trick, just to transfer a spy?

Well they didn't just want her back, they wanted everyone to think she was clean too, otherwise every bit of confidential information she knew would be changed.

It was only because Picard was ready to start shooting the Romulans fessed up.

And Data's behavior did not make a lot of sense. He was asked about Enterprise shield capabilities, and told T'Pel he would have to report the request to the captain. T'Pel then said that the request was just a test. Data reasoned that since Vulcans did not lie, he did not have to report it. But Data's orders were to report any such inquiry, so he should have reported it. And it's a bit scary to have a senior officer so naive that he would fall for a trick like that: that kind of naivete should have been discovered at Starfleet. At the very least, Data should have been disciplined for violating the reporting order. But it just seemed out of character for Data, in no other episode did he endanger the Enterprise or Starfleet at all, much less by falling for an obvious trick.

You are over-thinking it, when Data said he would have to report a request, she cancelled it, therefore cancelling the need for a report. She had the clearance for the information due to her rank, so she presumably was just trying it on in case of a fight.

She obviously tried asking the computer first, who gave her the same warning, so she cancelled again.

 

[nnnnnnn]

when Data said he would have to report a request, she cancelled it, therefore cancelling the need for a report.

The text of the conversation is inconsistent with your theory:

T'Pel: What is the is the strength of the ship's deflector shields at maximum output?

Data: May I ask the purpose of your request?

T'Pel: I require this information.

Data: I have the same safeguards as the ship's computer. I report any inquiry about restricted information to the Captain. Your reaction suggests you do not wish him to know of your inquiry.

T'Pel: I was not interested in the information. I was curious as to your security safeguards. They seem adequate. Cancel the request.

Data states "I report any inquiry about restricted information to the Captain." T'Pel made an inquiry about restricted information. Data therefore must report the inquiry to the Captain.

That T'Pel withdrew the inquiry is not relevant to the applicability of the regulation described by Data.

 

[nnnnnnn]

From what you lay out in you post, there are three possibilities. Two involve T'Pel entering the Federation as a adult. One is she was introduced into Vulcan society while a young woman, with a false background

Any "false background" would be picked up as soon as T'Pel applied for a high-level security clearance. These always involve checking backgrounds, and not just paper documents but interviewing people, like her schoolmates, relatives (who were her relatives supposed to have been), early teachers and so on.

Once T'Pel actually became ambassador, Vulcan would have a keen interest in her and would conduct their own investigation.

I think people are confusing the kind of background check an average employer or minor government agency might perform with a high-level security background check. In the former type, you just need a few fake documents. In the latter type, all references are checked with in-person interviews, from childhood. This is virtually impossible to fake.

Two is that T'Pel is an imposter, a substitute. Surgically altered to resemble a existing Vulcan diplomat. A background check would have been a thing of the past, and of no concern. She might have been "T'Pel" for decades, or well over a century.

That is logically possible. Why don't they mention though in the episode that the real T'Pel was killed? Seems a fairly critical plot point.

The third possibility is that T'Pel is actual a born Vulcan, who at some point in her life began to identify with the Romulans and came to be in contact with them, and started working for them. Becoming a Romulan patriot. In time she "returned home" for the first time. Her rank of subcommander was in their security service.

Whether this is possible depends details of Romulan and Vulcan anatomy and appearance that I am unclear on.

It's unclear from the episode if she was a Vulcan ambassador, or a Federation ambassador.

She was a Federation Ambassador:

First, it would be a bit odd for Romulus to negotiate with the Vulcan ambassador for peace with the Federation, which is with whom it is at odds.

Second, the deference given her by the Captain suggests she is the Federation Ambassador as well. The Captain is only so deferential to senior Federation diplomats. A Vulcan ambassador would not have ordered Riker to "Please leave": she would have had no plausible authority to do so. A senior Federation diplomat would.

Third, Picard's threatening to start an interstellar war over a Vulcan ambassador is less plausible than his threatening to start one over a Federation ambassador.

Although logically possible, the "Vulcan ambassador" theory is much less natural and plausible than the "Federation ambassador" theory.

 

[Satyrquaze]

Noting also that, in 'Birthright', it was established that Klingons and Romulans can interbreed. Without, from all indications, any major medical intervention.

Well, we know they can breed, the difficulty in question was at best undisclosed.

True. But it was an isolated place with, from all accounts, not exactly an excess of faciltiies. IMO, expecting a POW camp's hospital to handle specialized fields like gene-tinkering and/or advanced obstetrics is more than a little out there. Yet, there was a number of quite healthy Klingon-Romulan hybrids.

All of which suggests very strongly to me that the successful interbreeding of Klingons and Romulans requires minimal medical intervention - the biggest hurdle is the mental one.

The dialogue of the episode in question suggests that Carraya IV wasn't simply a POW camp. And I'll admit that creating hybrid species is notoriously easy in the Star Trek universe.

Tokath (although he sacrificed his career) was a high ranking official and probably could have gotten modern medical equipment, medical assistance, a genetic resequencer... or some other technobabble device. Plus, he Probably knew a few geneticists which owed him favors.

We know that a Human/Vulcan hybrid is hypothetically fairly easy even by 22nd century standards. A Human/Klingon hybrid is possible (with some help) by the 24th century.

You're probably right that the biggest hurdle was a mental one, I'm just saying it also likely involved a little more than few regular hyposprays and multiple attempts.

 

[Timo]

First, it would be a bit odd for Romulus to negotiate with the Vulcan ambassador for peace with the Federation, which is with whom it is at odds.

Yet we know that both Vulcans and Romulans are obsessed with their mutual relationship. The negotiations T'Pel was involved in, unspecified in dialogue, could well involve that important matter, rather than Federal issues of much lesser import to the two worlds in question.

Second, the deference given her by the Captain suggests she is the Federation Ambassador as well. The Captain is only so deferential to senior Federation diplomats. A Vulcan ambassador would not have ordered Riker to "Please leave": she would have had no plausible authority to do so. A senior Federation diplomat would.

How could we tell? We've never seen how our heroes behave with "national" Ambassadors, after all. And all sorts of diplomatic riffraff ordered Kirk around like a bellhop; it sounds implausible that a mere soldier would be in any position to talk back.

Third, Picard's threatening to start an interstellar war over a Vulcan ambassador is less plausible than his threatening to start one over a Federation ambassador.

Only marginally so, though. And if the Romulans want to go to war over something, it's Vulcan; the Federation is just the necessary evil you have to deal with when you want to tackle the all-important Vulcan issue.

In the latter type, all references are checked with in-person interviews, from childhood. This is virtually impossible to fake.

An increasingly virtual society actually makes this easier to do. The childhood friends of T'Pel could be created out of whole cloth; Vulcan intelligence would have to rely on their records in figuring out who these friends were in the first place, after all, and thus each and every one of them could be a well-prepared fake him- or herself.

We have curiously little information about the extent of Romulan sympathies in the Vulcan society, and wise versa. But given how the two worlds are treated like the two Koreas of our reality, one would suspect such sympathies are extensive, and sharp divisions in turn artificial.

How far removed are Vulcan and Romulus, really? Sarek appeared to have his first son at seventy or so - possibly the length of the Vulcan generation. If the rift goes back two millennia, that's just 30 generations, then. About the historical distance to the Hundred Year War... In spatial terms, the star systems appear to be virtual neighbors. And leading Vulcan diplomats don't give a flying fuck about UFP concerns when dealing with the Vulcan-Romulan issue, as we learned in "Unification". In this sort of an environment, it doesn't appear all that unlikely that a Romulan spy network on Vulcan would find widespread support, and vice versa.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

Data states "I report any inquiry about restricted information to the Captain." T'Pel made an inquiry about restricted information. Data therefore must report the inquiry to the Captain.

That T'Pel withdrew the inquiry is not relevant to the applicability of the regulation described by Data.

Well I think that interpretation would have to come down to a confrontation in a court overseeing the actual regulation, which might not exist, as Data just describes it as a safeguard... its like saying "I'm going to kill you... only kidding" counts as a real death threat.

I think there is enough wiggle room in it to give the conversation a pass. It is not like it refers to an actual written rule with guidelines for enforcement, precedent and an appearance in Boston Legal!

 

[nnnnnnn]

Well I think that interpretation would have to come down to a confrontation in a court overseeing the actual regulation, which might not exist, as Data just describes it as a safeguard... its like saying "I'm going to kill you... only kidding" counts as a real death threat.

It's more like saying the first sentence of this dialog

A: I'm going to kill you.
B: I'm wearing a wire.
A: I was only kidding.

counts as a death threat.


By the way, T'Pel's claim about a "security test" isn't even particularly consistent.

Had T'Pel known the test would succeed, and Data would decline to answer, then she would not have given it.

But if she thought the test might fail, then she thought Data might answer. As soon as Data answers, she is in possession of presumably highly sensitive highly secure military information.

So far, Data knows all this too.

But Data also believes T'Pel is about to board a Romulan Warboard in close proximity to the Enterprise. We know Starfleet policy is always to consider the possibility of capture, since we know it is routine procedure to change access codes when officer is captured, as in Gambit.

So, even if Data believed that T'Pel was acting in good faith, he should have known the "security test" was far too risky. Had it failed, and had T'Pel been captured, the Enterprise might be at a tactical disadvantage in a resulting battle with the Warbird(s), and it would compromise Federation security later.

The only way the test would be safe in this context would be if T'Pel actually knew the answer ahead of time. But she never told Data this, so there is no reason for Data to think she knew the answer.

The only way to make sense out of the scene is to assume that when Picard found about the conversation he knew that if he filed a disciplinary report, which was merited, Data's career as an officer might be over. You don't want senior officers with blatant bugs that are so easy to game. Thus, Picard must have deliberately withheld the information from Starfleet to protect Data. This caused Picard and Data problems in Drumhead, but problems of their own making.

 

[Timo]

We don't have to assume that Picard would find out about the discussion. Data is the consummate LARP practitioner, after all: when he goes to Sherlock mode, he assumes several annoying private eye mannerisms, including a failure to report according to proper Starfleet protocol - we saw this in "Lonely Among Us" already.

If Data began to harbor suspicions, he would probably proceed independently, hiding evidence (or at least lines of inquiry) from his superiors. He did this in order to protect his friend LaForge to the last in "Mind's Eye"; he might have been motivated to protect the reputation of T'Pel in like manner.

Really, the failure to report is not uncharacteristic of any of the parties in question. The reason we have a problem with all this is because of the structure of the episode: the private correspondence we are allowed to read fills the function of inner dialogue, and supposedly tells us that Data is exhibiting naïve ideas.

Then again, Data is often expressing naïvete, even when we know he actually isn't all that naïve "inside". It's more a facet of his social clumsiness, or sometimes his preferred mode of learning more about the world. His true inner thoughts might in fact be much more Machiavellian than the private correspondence we are allowed to read. If he has decided to hide some suspicions from his CO, it more or less follows that he would hide them from Commander Maddox, too...

We know Starfleet policy is always to consider the possibility of capture, since we know it is routine procedure to change access codes when officer is captured, as in Gambit.

So in this case, access codes could be changed if T'Pel is captured - but not before. Indeed, it would be a good idea to change the codes on such an occasion quite regardless of what Starfleet thinks T'Pel knows. So letting T'Pel know more shouldn't be a problem as such.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

But Data also believes T'Pel is about to board a Romulan Warboard ...

At that point in the episode, how would Data know this?

")

 

[nnnnnnn]

But Data also believes T'Pel is about to board a Romulan Warboard ...

At that point in the episode, how would Data know this?

")

Good point! You're right.