TOS Timeline Questions

[marlboro]

Even after watching all these episodes and movies, and reading so many books, I am still confused by the TOS timeline. All of these questions have probably been asked and answered before, so bear with me. At first glance some of these questions may be better suited to the TOS board, but I think some of the answers may only be found in the novels.


1) How long had Kirk been the captain of the Enterprise by the time we see him in The Man Trap? Is that episode actually year two of the 5ym?

2) Bones seems to have been on the Enterprise for quite a while in The Man Trap. The characters act as if they have known each other for quite a while, at least. What's up with that?

3) We see a different doctor in Where No Man has Gone Before - how much further in the past was that episode compared to the Man Trap?

4) I always assumed that there was a 10 year difference between the end of TOS and TMP. I also thought TWOK took place soon after TMP. Wrong on both counts. Why did GR decide to place TMP so soon after the series?

5) A second five year mission. Did it exist? If so, I assume it was after TMP, correct?

6) How long was Spock captain of the Enterprise? Any books about this era?

7) What was the ultimate fate of the Enterprise A?

 

[Christopher]

1) How long had Kirk been the captain of the Enterprise by the time we see him in The Man Trap? Is that episode actually year two of the 5ym?

Roddenberry's intent was that he'd been captain of the Enterprise for at least two years; The Making of Star Trek, published in season 2, says Kirk is 34 (his age in "The Deadly Years") and has been in command for four years. But this was never made explicit onscreen, and the novels have tended to treat the first season as the first year of the 5-year mission, possibly with the second pilot representing an earlier, shorter mission before the start of the 5-year general survey.

2) Bones seems to have been on the Enterprise for quite a while in The Man Trap. The characters act as if they have known each other for quite a while, at least. What's up with that?

What's up with that is that 1960s television was episodic and didn't have today's insistence on starting at the beginning and telling serialized stories. One episode was meant to be much like any other, and often even the first episode was just a typical adventure of a well-established cast. The episodes were made to be shown in any order and make equal sense. "The Man Trap" was actually the sixth episode filmed, counting the pilots, but the network chose to air it first because it was a monster story.

3) We see a different doctor in Where No Man has Gone Before - how much further in the past was that episode compared to the Man Trap?

Again, that was never explicitly codified, but it's generally assumed that it took place in 2265 with season 1 being 2266-7.

4) I always assumed that there was a 10 year difference between the end of TOS and TMP. I also thought TWOK took place soon after TMP. Wrong on both counts. Why did GR decide to place TMP so soon after the series?

Probably because, again, shows back then didn't have the modern obsession with real-time chronology and serialization. A lot of shows maintained a sense of timelessness, like M*A*S*H spending 11 seasons depicting a 3-year war and jumping back and forth in its date references.

I don't know if this had any influence on Roddenberry or the filmmakers, but if you think about it, The Animated Series presented itself as part of the same 5-year mission despite coming out years later, and TMP came out only 5 years after the end of TAS. So maybe the interval just didn't seem that great at the time.

5) A second five year mission. Did it exist? If so, I assume it was after TMP, correct?

Officially, this is unestablished. A number of post-TMP novels assume there is a second 5-year mission after the movie, but there are some that disagree; for instance, the Crucible trilogy posits a 7-year deep-space survey instead, and some writers have assumed that Kirk went right back to the Admiralty after TMP.

6) How long was Spock captain of the Enterprise? Any books about this era?

Again, it's not officially established, but those people who assume there was a second 5-year mission generally assume that Spock took command when it ended. That would make it about 2278-85. I think the relatively early novel Dwellers in the Crucible is set during this period, as is the Captain Spock story in the Enterprise Logs anthology.

7) What was the ultimate fate of the Enterprise A?

Unknown. William Shatner's The Ashes of Eden shows it destroyed, but other tie-ins say it survived in a museum.

 

[marlboro]

Thanks!

 

[Leto_II]

Again, it's not officially established, but those people who assume there was a second 5-year mission generally assume that Spock took command when it ended. That would make it about 2278-85. I think the relatively early novel Dwellers in the Crucible is set during this period, as is the Captain Spock story in the Enterprise Logs anthology.

Also, the 2283 chapters of Dayton’s recent TOS novel Elusive Salvation fall right down the middle of this same time-period (showing us Captain Spock commanding the ship, and Kirk back at the Admiralty nearly full-time).

 

[ryan123450]

1) How long had Kirk been the captain of the Enterprise by the time we see him in The Man Trap? Is that episode actually year two of the 5ym?

The way I have things arranged, based on evidence from as many novels as I could peice together, The Man Trap takes place in February 2266. Star Trek Timeliners assume Kirk took command of the Enterprise in early 2264. I make an educated guess that the 5YM started in December 2265. So it’s pretty early in Year One.

3) We see a different doctor in Where No Man has Gone Before - how much further in the past was that episode compared to the Man Trap?

Again, piecing together evidence from several novels, especially Vanguard, I’d place WNMHGB in September 2265. So like 5 months.

4) I always assumed that there was a 10 year difference between the end of TOS and TMP. I also thought TWOK took place soon after TMP. Wrong on both counts. Why did GR decide to place TMP so soon after the series?

It was my understanding that it was the Okudas that settled upon these years. Things would probably make alot more sense if we could have done things differently, but it’s pretty set in stone at this point.

 

[Damian]

I don't have much to add as most of what was said is my understanding as well. It is interesting to read Christopher's understanding of Where No Man Has Gone Before being set before the 5 year mission. I tended to think that myself. I think it was the My Brother's Keeper trilogy where it was noted after WNMHGB the Enterprise was heading back to Earth for a refit, then it would be after that when the 5 YM would get going (the refit I thing was to explain the difference in appearance of the ship like the bridge, briefing room, etc.).

And yeah, the timeline of a 5 YM after TMP makes more sense then having another one before TMP. Mainly I think because if you go with the idea that TMP, TWOK and TSFS were pretty close together that would mean they did a complete stem to stern refit of the Enterprise only to mothball it 3-5 years later. That wouldn't make a lot of sense. Plus when you do the math it makes more sense to have a 10+ year gap between TMP and TWOK. We are told in TMP that Admiral Kirk was Admiral for 2 1/2 years. In TWOK we are told it is about 15 years after Space Seed. So adding that all up makes it at least about a 12 year gap. Though some have noted that some of the early Pocketbook novels seem to have this idea that there was a 2nd 5YM before TMP. I wouldn't be surprised if they were taking into consideration the aborted Phase II project with that. Ultimately they were placed after TMP, or towards the end of the original mission, depending on the book details such as ranks, ship design and so forth.

Some of the novels indicated that Kirk wanted McCoy from the start of his command of the Enterprise. Enterprise, the First Adventure for instance. Strangers from the Sky then explains McCoy had to take a leave of absence and Piper came on board to fill in. Other novels, like My Brothers Keeper, indicate Piper came on board with Kirk and McCoy was only brought on board when Piper retired. I used to think maybe there was overlap. That maybe Dr Piper was on board going back to the last years Captain Pike was in command, though I didn't have anything to base that on. I think I thought that way because Kirk likely took command not long before WNMHGB, and I figured Piper didn't become CMO for just a few months to a year. I thought maybe he was there before. A number of novels indicated that Scotty was on board during Pike's command though. If I remember correctly, he and Spock were the primary two command officers retained by Kirk.

And there's some confusion about the first officer. I once thought Mitchell was Kirk's first officer at the beginning, Spock just a science officer. A few novels ran with that as well. But more recent novels suggest Spock was Kirk's first officer from the start. As far as books just prior to TWOK when Spock became Captain, there are precious few. Christopher noted Dwellers. I can't think of any others. The New Earth series is one of the later series during that TMP-TWOK era, taking place a few years prior to TWOK (and depicting Chekov leaving for the Reliant), but that's probably the next closest, and Kirk is still Captain there.

 

[Damian]

I will say, I'm not sure why everyone always assumes that missions can only be 5YMs. Christopher noted some have noted maybe up to a 7 year mission after TMP. That sounds reasonable to me, I mean, there's no reason Starfleet has to have 5 YMs beyond that which we saw in the original series. I actually thought that before the Kirk era as well. Maybe during the Pike era they had 3 year missions, or 4 years, or just random sets of time. I never thought 5 year missions had to be a permanent thing for Starfleet. It may have been a thing in the 2260's and maybe by the 2270's it was expanded.

 

[ryan123450]

Well after last week we know Pike also commanded at least one 5YM.

 

[Christopher]

It was my understanding that it was the Okudas that settled upon these years.

No, they picked the specific calendar dates, but TMP itself made it explicit in dialogue that only two and a half years had passed since the end of the 5-year mission (or 2.8 years according to Roddenberry's novelization). I mean, sure, if you were determined to believe there was a decade between the series and TMP, you could argue that the dialogue allows for the possibility that Kirk spent years doing something else in between commanding the Enterprise and being Chief of Starfleet Operations, but that's a reach. (Keep in mind that Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov have only gone up one step in rank between TOS and TMP, which is more consistent with a shorter interval.) The simplest, Occam's-Razor reading of the film's dialogue, and the one that's pretty much always been followed by the tie-ins, is that the interval is only the 2.5 years stated in the film.

It is interesting to read Christopher's understanding of Where No Man Has Gone Before being set before the 5 year mission. I tended to think that myself. I think it was the My Brother's Keeper trilogy where it was noted after WNMHGB the Enterprise was heading back to Earth for a refit, then it would be after that when the 5 YM would get going (the refit I thing was to explain the difference in appearance of the ship like the bridge, briefing room, etc.).

I think there are some more recent books that make the same assumption -- maybe either Vanguard: Harbinger or Mere Anarchy: Things Fall Apart.

Though some have noted that some of the early Pocketbook novels seem to have this idea that there was a 2nd 5YM before TMP. I wouldn't be surprised if they were taking into consideration the aborted Phase II project with that. Ultimately they were placed after TMP, or towards the end of the original mission, depending on the book details such as ranks, ship design and so forth.

It's more that some of the novels just presumed that the "5-year mission" ran a lot longer than that, and didn't explicitly address why. A second 5YM is one way of interpreting that; another is just to ignore the title narration and assume there was no set duration to the mission. TMP did have Kirk specify "my five years out there," but some of the books just ignored that.

 

[Leto_II]

Some of the novels indicated that Kirk wanted McCoy from the start of his command of the Enterprise. Enterprise, the First Adventure for instance. Strangers from the Sky then explains McCoy had to take a leave of absence and Piper came on board to fill in. Other novels, like My Brothers Keeper, indicate Piper came on board with Kirk and McCoy was only brought on board when Piper retired. I used to think maybe there was overlap. That maybe Dr Piper was on board going back to the last years Captain Pike was in command, though I didn't have anything to base that on. I think I thought that way because Kirk likely took command not long before WNMHGB, and I figured Piper didn't become CMO for just a few months to a year. I thought maybe he was there before.

Officially-speaking, very recently we’ve gotten a pair of stories in John Byrne’s New Visions comic series (“A Scent of Ghosts” and “Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner”) which depicted Dr. Piper coming aboard in 2263 during Captain Pike’s command, and staying on up through almost the first two years of Kirk’s command (leaving between “Where No Man...” and “The Corbomite Maneuver”). It’s somewhat inconsistent with Enterprise: The First Adventure, but is more consistent with more recent tales.

I will say, I'm not sure why everyone always assumes that missions can only be 5YMs. Christopher noted some have noted maybe up to a 7 year mission after TMP. That sounds reasonable to me, I mean, there's no reason Starfleet has to have 5 YMs beyond that which we saw in the original series. I actually thought that before the Kirk era as well. Maybe during the Pike era they had 3 year missions, or 4 years, or just random sets of time. I never thought 5 year missions had to be a permanent thing for Starfleet. It may have been a thing in the 2260's and maybe by the 2270's it was expanded.

Although, it should be noted that, literally as of last Thursday night, we got our very first canonical onscreen confirmation on Discovery that Captain Pike himself commanded at least one 5YM prior to Kirk taking over the center seat (the starship was evidently engaged in the extended mission when the Federation-Klingon War of 2256 broke out).

EDIT: Ninja’d by ryan right as I was typing my own response.

 

[Damian]

The simplest, Occam's-Razor reading of the film's dialogue, and the one that's pretty much always been followed by the tie-ins, is that the interval is only the 2.5 years stated in the film.

It's more that some of the novels just presumed that the "5-year mission" ran a lot longer than that, and didn't explicitly address why. A second 5YM is one way of interpreting that; another is just to ignore the title narration and assume there was no set duration to the mission. TMP did have Kirk specify "my five years out there," but some of the books just ignored that.

Yeah, I always thought that TMP was 2 1/2 years after the end of the 5YM based on that line of dialogue. It really wasn't until I read some comments here about some of the early novels before TWOK that there seemed to be some ambiguity as to when the books actually took place. In the past I generally went with the ranks (i.e. if Chekov was listed as a Lt then I figured it was probably post-TMP). And of course nowadays it's a little more well-defined, and some timeframes have even been retconned (i.e. I saw that while the New Earth series books state they are early 2270's they've been since revised to later 2270's based on the specific years we've been given on subsequent programs).

Although, it should be noted that, literally as of last Thursday night, we got our very first canonical onscreen confirmation on Discovery that Captain Pike himself commanded at least one 5YM prior to Kirk taking over the center seat (the starship was evidently engaged in the extended mission when the Federation-Klingon War of 2256 broke out).

I'll have to wait until the season 2 Blu-Ray release to see that, though it's interesting to note. And of course the Abrams-movies, while set in a different universe, also had a 5 year mission in the late 2250's-2260's.

I never really thought it was required the Enterprise had multiple 5YM over it's lifetime. I used to just figure maybe it was something Starfleet sent ships on in the 2260s, maybe because things were more peaceful during that period allowing for Starfleet to devote more time to exploration. It sometimes seems like the show-runners and so forth think the 5YM thing was the standard through most of the 23rd century, and probably in reality that wouldn't be the case. It'd be more likely they sent ships out on a 5YM at a specific time but not over and over again. But ok, it's not a make or break thing for me. I used to think the original series 5YM was the first of it's kind, that prior to that they had long term missions but not necessarily for specified time periods.

Certainly after TMP one would think the Enterprise didn't necessarily have to have yet another 5 YM. Maybe it was longer, shorter, or maybe it was just one mission after another until the Enterprise was called back to base for some reason with no specified mission period. Or go to this section of the galaxy and explore this region until we tell you different or something comes up that we need you back for something.

 

[Christopher]

(i.e. I saw that while the New Earth series books state they are early 2270's they've been since revised to later 2270's based on the specific years we've been given on subsequent programs).

I think it was just the historian's notes that said they were "shortly after" TMP, because for some reason it's always been a convention in historian's notes for post-TMP novels to be "shortly after" TMP. But the content of the books -- Spock being a captain, Chekov about to leave for the Reliant -- was always more consistent with a setting closer to TWOK, so the historian's notes always seemed like an error that the Pocket Timeline corrected.

And of course the Abrams-movies, while set in a different universe, also had a 5 year mission in the late 2250's-2260's.

Although STID did indicate that 5-year exploration tours were a new program that Kirk was hoping the Enterprise would be assigned to, not an established norm or a mandatory mission profile.

 

[ryan123450]

I think it was just the historian's notes that said they were "shortly after" TMP, because for some reason it's always been a convention in historian's notes for post-TMP novels to be "shortly after" TMP. But the content of the books -- Spock being a captain, Chekov about to leave for the Reliant -- was always more consistent with a setting closer to TWOK, so the historian's notes always seemed like an error that the Pocket Timeline corrected.

Yes, from looking back thru the discussions the Timeliners had leading up to the publication of Voyages of Imagination, I noticed that the change toward ignoring the New Earth historian’s notes was originally championed by Geoff Trowbridge, the then leader of the group.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

1) How long had Kirk been the captain of the Enterprise by the time we see him in The Man Trap? Is that episode actually year two of the 5ym?

It's vague.

2) Bones seems to have been on the Enterprise for quite a while in The Man Trap. The characters act as if they have known each other for quite a while, at least. What's up with that?

It's vague.

3) We see a different doctor in Where No Man has Gone Before - how much further in the past was that episode compared to the Man Trap?

It's vague.

4) I always assumed that there was a 10 year difference between the end of TOS and TMP. I also thought TWOK took place soon after TMP. Wrong on both counts. Why did GR decide to place TMP so soon after the series?

The script for TMP started as the pilot episode of a prospective new TV series called Star Trek: Phase II. When work began on that, it was still the mid-70s, so it wasn't too long of a gap in real life. Roddenberry probably just decided that a shorter time gap from TOS was the simplest for his storytelling purposes.

We know that TMP is at least 2 1/2 years after the completion of the 5YM seen on TOS. And we know that TWOK takes place 15 years after "Space Seed." That's all that's definitively established in the movies. Most people place a longer gap between TMP and TWOK so that the characters' ages can be as close as possible to the actors' real life ages.

) A second five year mission. Did it exist? If so, I assume it was after TMP, correct?

It's vague.

6) How long was Spock captain of the Enterprise? Any books about this era?

It's vague.

7) What was the ultimate fate of the Enterprise A?

It's vague.

Really, for questions like these, each individual author can do whatever works best for their stories, as long as it doesn't contradict what's been previously established on the shows and movies.

 

[JD]

No, they picked the specific calendar dates, but TMP itself made it explicit in dialogue that only two and a half years had passed since the end of the 5-year mission (or 2.8 years according to Roddenberry's novelization). I mean, sure, if you were determined to believe there was a decade between the series and TMP, you could argue that the dialogue allows for the possibility that Kirk spent years doing something else in between commanding the Enterprise and being Chief of Starfleet Operations, but that's a reach. (Keep in mind that Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov have only gone up one step in rank between TOS and TMP, which is more consistent with a shorter interval.) The simplest, Occam's-Razor reading of the film's dialogue, and the one that's pretty much always been followed by the tie-ins, is that the interval is only the 2.5 years stated in the film.

Wow, either those were a rough 2.5 years, or there was some fun timey wimey stuff going on somewhere, because the characters sure seem to have aged a lot more than just 2.5 years.

 

[marlboro]

Wow, either those were a rough 2.5 years, or there was some fun timey wimey stuff going on somewhere, because the characters sure seem to have aged a lot more than just 2.5 years.

A flareup of that shit from The Deadly Years. Their adrenaline kicked in while tussling with V'Ger and they were back to normal by TWOK.

Not Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Wow, either those were a rough 2.5 years, or there was some fun timey wimey stuff going on somewhere, because the characters sure seem to have aged a lot more than just 2.5 years.

I never thought they looked that much older, except Nimoy and Doohan. To me they seemed to age more between TMP and TWOK, because then the makeup wasn't done to hide their age.

Besides, you could say the same about the later movies. TWOK through TFF came out over the course of 7 years, with the actors visibly aging from film to film, yet in-story the time span is less than a year (going by in-film evidence rather than the bizarre Okudachron dating scheme).

 

[Indysolo]

I think it was just the historian's notes that said they were "shortly after" TMP, because for some reason it's always been a convention in historian's notes for post-TMP novels to be "shortly after" TMP. But the content of the books -- Spock being a captain, Chekov about to leave for the Reliant -- was always more consistent with a setting closer to TWOK, so the historian's notes always seemed like an error that the Pocket Timeline corrected.

That note is what got me interested in the "New Earth" series, as I wanted more TMP era stories. Then the first book goes out of its way to mention the new TWOK uniforms. Aarrrgghh!

Neil

 

[Damian]

That note is what got me interested in the "New Earth" series, as I wanted more TMP era stories. Then the first book goes out of its way to mention the new TWOK uniforms. Aarrrgghh!

Neil

Yeah, that threw me a bit when I started reading New Earth because the historians noted it was soon after TMP, when I reality it's much closer to TWOK (even featuring Chekov leaving for the Reliant). I looked it up on Memory-Alpha (or Beta) and that's where I saw the 'revised' time frame.

To be honest "Probe" had a similar issue. The historians note stated it was sometime before TUC. While technically true it's a bit misleading as the story is much closer to TFF, a few weeks later at most (I suppose with the poor reponse to TFF they were trying to distance themselves from TFF---it was funny, the book jacket said a sequel to TVH and the historian note said sometime before TUC---like TFF never existed). And almost no mention of TFF, other than the ship was in good working order after all the malfunctions in TFF. I believe that was the only reference in the book to TFF.

 

[Christopher]

To be honest "Probe" had a similar issue. The historians note stated it was sometime before TUC. While technically true it's a bit misleading as the story is much closer to TFF, a few weeks later at most (I suppose with the poor reponse to TFF they were trying to distance themselves from TFF---it was funny, the book jacket said a sequel to TVH and the historian note said sometime before TUC---like TFF never existed). And almost no mention of TFF, other than the ship was in good working order after all the malfunctions in TFF. I believe that was the only reference in the book to TFF.

The thing about Probe is that it was written as a direct sequel to TVH, but it was delayed so much by Richard Arnold-mandated rewrites (eventually even being taken away from Margaret and ghost-rewritten by another author) that TFF happened in the interim, and so Probe had a few token references to TFF's events tossed in while still being a TVH sequel.