TOS Still The Best

[1001001]

I find it hard to believe that the Jim Kirk I saw in TOS was ever a choir boy.

No one said he was a choir boy, but the onscreen references to his character at the Academy are there.

Get over yourself.

FU.

Both of you, please drop it. I don't want to hand out infractions, but this kind of personal back and forth is not okay.

Thanks.

 

[fireproof78]

I am warming to jjtrek in theory the more I read of it here. Stylistically, it is not my thing, but whatever.

So though I am trying to be more appreciative, it is hard to argue with the assesment of nuKirk as an a**hole. Yes, there might be reasons. And he is better in JJ2. I hope he is fully formed by 3. A sign of the times, our less mythological, more materialist, scientific approach to everything, we (many of us anyway) prefer the cause and effect: WHY is our hero - sorry, protagonist - the way he is?

Compare the Gene Wilder Wonka to Depp Wonka. Wilder Wonka is what he is, fully formed chaotic good. Depp Wonka has to give us backstory with horrific headgear, bondage really, all from guess what? . . . a broken relationship with the father. Freud wins.

Note Charlie has no father, has a bedridden Grandpa Joe in place of Pike, but is neither cocky nor a**hole.

Also, though I am biased toward TOS, I just don't see oldKirk as cocky. He questions himself throughout the series and the films. From the start he seems likeable though firm (that's what she said?). The paragon of the father, always concerned about his love, the ship (a vessel, container, mother-figure) and his children, the crew. Let's throw Jung some love here too.

Be well!

Jung certainly informs about Kirk as well.

I think your assessment regarding contemporary film making style, where the protagonist must have a long and tragic back story is more requisite.

Prime Kirk is definitely an archetypical father figure. Funny, firm, inspiring and engaging. He may not be cocky but he is confident, but tempered by an awareness of his potential fallibility. He has is flaws that blind him to certain things, but he is aware of the flaw itself.

Nu Kirk is flawed but he is not aware of his flaws. It takes having both a father figure to inspire the potential, and real world experience to shape him in to a leader.

And I get that seeing Kirk as an irreverent, irresponsible jerk is not the type of Star Trek story that is for everyone. I just find it interesting from a psychological point of view.

I still prefer TOS Kirk, who reminds me a lot of my own dad. But, I'll not discount the journey of nu Kirk simply because he isn't like Prime Kirk.

 

[plynch]

We reach.

The growth of Kirk is nice to see in JJTrek, though it's not what I was expecting when the series began. I like him less than oldKirk, which matters when warming to a film/series.

Stylistically, it is not so much the characters, but the hyperkintetic nature and the outright loudness of the films that aren't to my taste.

If they have Kirk more or less whole by 3, what about Spock? He's way more "damaged" than in TOS.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Losing a parent and planet will do that.

 

[fireproof78]

We reach.

The growth of Kirk is nice to see in JJTrek, though it's not what I was expecting when the series began. I like him less than oldKirk, which matters when warming to a film/series.

Stylistically, it is not so much the characters, but the hyperkintetic nature and the outright loudness of the films that aren't to my taste.

If they have Kirk more or less whole by 3, what about Spock? He's way more "damaged" than in TOS.

I'm really hoping that Ben Cross comes back as Sarek to provide that fatherly support that Spock needs. I'm also think that as nuKirk matures he will be better able to provide the kind of support and leadership that Prime Kirk did to his crew over the years.

Also, I completely understand the style of the films not being to everyone's tastes. That part, I won't argue about.

 

[plynch]

I've never thought this before, but is messed-up Spock a bigger change than immature-Kirk?

Yes, old-Spock was conflicted b/c of his dual nature but generally kept his sh*t together -- except when spores or a thousand years of time travel got in the way. He was the model of being rational and stoic (yet compassionate and gracious) in spite of his difficulties. Quite a role model.

Of course, as noted above, losing a parent (overused trope, btw?) and a race will mess you up, as in the case of nuSpock. No argument here. I was just wondering aloud if his isn't a bigger difference than nuKirk cf. to old.

 

[fireproof78]

I've never thought this before, but is messed-up Spock a bigger change than immature-Kirk?

Yes, old-Spock was conflicted b/c of his dual nature but generally kept his sh*t together -- except when spores or a thousand years of time travel got in the way. He was the model of being rational and stoic (yet compassionate and gracious) in spite of his difficulties. Quite a role model.

Of course, as noted above, losing a parent (overused trope, btw?) and a race will mess you up, as in the case of nuSpock. No argument here. I was just wondering aloud if his isn't a bigger difference than nuKirk cf. to old.

I would argue that yes, nuSpock is more different than nuKirk. NuSpock has been put through a stress that could drive many to insanity. I would make the argument that Nero is nuSpock's dark mirror, the potential outcome if Spock lets his deep emotions consume him.

I think Spock has a longer path to travel, but I also think that the friendship between Kirk and Spock will provide the type of leadership and support that Spock needs to work through his grief.

 

[Franklin]

I've never thought this before, but is messed-up Spock a bigger change than immature-Kirk?

Yes, old-Spock was conflicted b/c of his dual nature but generally kept his sh*t together -- except when spores or a thousand years of time travel got in the way. He was the model of being rational and stoic (yet compassionate and gracious) in spite of his difficulties. Quite a role model.

Of course, as noted above, losing a parent (overused trope, btw?) and a race will mess you up, as in the case of nuSpock. No argument here. I was just wondering aloud if his isn't a bigger difference than nuKirk cf. to old.

I would argue that yes, nuSpock is more different than nuKirk. NuSpock has been put through a stress that could drive many to insanity. I would make the argument that Nero is nuSpock's dark mirror, the potential outcome if Spock lets his deep emotions consume him.

I think Spock has a longer path to travel, but I also think that the friendship between Kirk and Spock will provide the type of leadership and support that Spock needs to work through his grief.

Spock's path in TOS, especially in the movies, was towards humanity and a willing acceptance of his human half (and even its potential strengths). He became "more human" over time. There's more to life than pure logic and emotions are not to be feared.

The path of Spock in the new movies may be in totally opposite direction. With the pain he's suffered and the questions about his existence it may raise (survivor guilt), there may be a day when he craves, needs, and goes through Kolinahr just to cope with the loss, end the pain, and keep his sanity. Pure logic and the purging of all emotion may end up being the direction in life.

 

[T'Bonz]

You know, we shouldn't have even allowed this thread. It's either nuTrek or Gen Trek. This forum is TOS only.

Last thing I want to do is import the "love or hate nuTrek" fighting that happens elsewhere.

If this goes south again, I'll close it.

 

[plynch]

It's come along nicely, boss. Helping me rethink NuTrek and we're playing nice. Pleeeez?

I'll say something about TOS just to stay on topic.

Boy, that Nimoy fella was good, eh?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Love that guy.

 

[fireproof78]

I love the whole Spock character. From start to finish he is the most interesting, most dynamic, and goes through a variety of challenges and changes. I was recently rewatching the first scene of "Where No Man..." and the dynamic of Spock's character is an interesting compare and contrast to the Spock of TUC.

His exchange with Kirk when Kirk asks if he is getting "irritated" and Spock responds with a question and then comments "One of your Earth emotions" (emphasis added).

Compared with later on, where he is still commenting on humanity, but his reconciliation of his two halves is much more complete. If anyone ever wonders why I enjoy TUC so much it is because of the level of self-reflection Spock has on himself.

 

[Dave Scarpa]

I agree that it's infinitely more re watchable than tng or ds9 , I never tire of Tos a tribute to the actors and writers

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Boy, that Nimoy fella was good, eh?

I, too, am floored by Nimoy.

 

[Marsden]

I thought Quinto started out ok but seemed to be less what I liked later, I hate to admit it, but it does have a certain logic to it because.... (BillJ you're going to want to read this, you know how I feel about the JJmovies), logical because if we take All Our Yesterdays, The Immunity Syndrome (and some books and other sources), the Vulcan race had a kind of group influence that no matter how far they were connected. Nothing like the Borg, but still there was an influence, and influence that Obi Wan I mean Spock felt when the Intrepid was destroyed and was completely missing when he went back 5,000 years. So, if a large majority of Vulcans were on Vulcan, then most are dead and not influencing the survivors. Also, the Katras saved on Vulcan were presumably released or lost, and they too are no longer helping Quinto Spock maintain his composure and that's why he's like that.

So, I've defended something from JJtrek. Ugh.


I don't have anything for NuKirk. I don't remember Jim mentioning his father or mother at all. All I remember is his brother Sam, that only he calls Sam. And his three nephews, of which we only see Peter, once. If his parents were such a huge influence, why would he never mention them? Not necessary, but still.

I hope T'Bonz isn't mad that I was talking about that, I was enjoying the thread, except that fighting part, I'm really growing to hate Nutrek less and less, although I don't think I'd ever find myself actually liking it, I have hope that all of this "finding my way" stuff is over and NST3 is a Star Trek movie that I can like.

 

[plynch]

Good point about the link among Vulcans. Arguably Kirk and Spock are both more "interesting" in JJTrek. However, TOS got to me as a child, and ShatnerKirk and NimoySpock were two of my heroes. I spent many, many hours with them! Day after day thqanks to channel 50. They were people who went about doing good. In a cool spaceship and fleshed-out universe. Perfect.

So to me it is the best. But that's a pretty broad and vague word. Good case made for the majesty and character stories of TNG. Be well!

 

[BillJ]

Arguably Kirk and Spock are both more "interesting" in JJTrek.

Not more interesting, but interesting for different reasons. The Abrams movies are more a path not taken take on the franchise.

However, TOS got to me as a child, and ShatnerKirk and NimoySpock were two of my heroes.

+1.

Nothing will ever take the place of TOS in my life. It was the right show in the right place in time for this youngster. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy other interpretations of the characters and situations.

 

[T'Bonz]

I hope T'Bonz isn't mad that I was talking about that, I was enjoying the thread, except that fighting part, I'm really growing to hate Nutrek less and less, although I don't think I'd ever find myself actually liking it, I have hope that all of this "finding my way" stuff is over and NST3 is a Star Trek movie that I can like.

Honestly, as long as y'all don't fight, the one-off thread won't kill us. But if I have to work....

 

[TRON JA307020]

It's come along nicely, boss. Helping me rethink NuTrek and we're playing nice. Pleeeez?

I'll say something about TOS just to stay on topic.

Boy, that Nimoy fella was good, eh?

Its my fault I shouldn't have started out the thread saying TOS is way better then NuTrek especially without a reason. I did give it later. TOS is my favorite of all the ST propertied so sometimes I get carried away. I do like some things about NuTrek.