TOS-Shuttle Question

[ahkyahnan]

You find the exact same contradiction with the aquashuttle.

Why should there be a "contradiction" in the fact that these two shuttle types are very large?

Oh no, I didn't mean that by itself. I meant that, to my eyes at least, they both always seemed to look bigger on the inside than what some of the exterior images suggested. Or maybe it was just 20+ years of perceptions and mental images clouding my vision when I finally had some hard material to work from.

Taking TAS as itself, I've come to assume both were temporarily requisitioned from some base facility for specific missions, and then returned or dropped off at another base.

That would be a most logical way to operate an aquashuttle. But in that case, there would be no reason to rescale it to be Galileo sized... (Although FJ does so in his NCC-1700 interior blueprints!)

A most logical way to operate an aquashuttle from a cruiser with a relatively small hangar. But from a research-oriented carrier intended to explore worlds not so easily reached by transporter in shirt-sleeves every week...and I'd think there would be a lot of worlds like that we just never saw...it might not be a problem to embark one permanently. Kind of like the ones in my blueprints.

BTW, am I missing a page in my FJ blueprints? I don't recall any shuttles but it's been a long time since I've pulled them out. Or did you mean something else?

You know, something like this:

Oh wow!!! I never realized that anyone had modified/redrawn my Ganymede design! That's pretty cool. Thanks for letting me know. I don't surf for things like that much.

Mark

 

[Timo]

It's actually not really out there in the net - just a personal experiment of turning the Ganymede back to something more closely resembling the TAS original, by toying with the aft landing gear and that hatch thing. It's not a bad-looking shuttle, despite the somewhat cartoonish bow...

On the FJ blueprints, Deck 21 (Food Preparation / Shuttle Storage) seems to portray six standard TOS shuttles and two examples of the miniaturized aquashuttle - or at least of a blunt-nosed shuttle with a pressing-iron cockpit shape that seems very much like the aquashuttle minus the warp nacelles. One might even argue that there are various types of that basic design, built in different sizes, and the large and warp-capable TAS one isn't standard gear but this smaller impulse-only craft can be permanently carried.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ahkyahnan]

Oh OK. No wonder I hadn't seen that design before. A good way for handling the original TAS concept of a much larger shuttle.

On the other matter, are you sure you're looking at FJ's blueprints and not the later FASA set maybe? I pulled out my original 1974 copy of the FJ plans, and Deck 21 features the 'infamous' bowling alley under the shuttle maintenance facility, not shuttle storage. Unless FJ revised them later on, I couldn't find any shuttle drawings in the deck plans at all. Just curious.

Thanks again for sharing that design.

Mark

 

[FalTorPan]

I don't remember seeing non-TOS shuttles in FJ's plans. One thing to keep in mind about the FASA plans -- if that's the source of the extra shuttles -- is that FJ had nothing to do with those drawings. It's possible that he didn't even know they were being made.

 

[Timo]

A big whoops... Yeah, those are the FASA plans (which feature some impossibilities regarding available deck height, especially in terms of shuttle handling), not the FJ ones - I go the photocopies mixed up.

Perhaps the Copernicus and Mark's Ganymede could also be two differently sized variants of a successful shape. "Mudd's Passion" also features a couple of boxy shuttles that resemble the basic TOS model but lack the aft landing leg and seem to rest on their nacelles; to match the rest of the shuttles shown, we could interpret these as somewhat larger cargo models, perhaps direct predecessors of the ST5:TFF shuttlecraft. Yeah, sooner or later we might get fed up with the scaling problems of TAS - but we could also milk the cartoon for the maximum number of interesting auxiliary craft variants...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ahkyahnan]

Perhaps the Copernicus and Mark's Ganymede could also be two differently sized variants of a successful shape. <snip> Yeah, sooner or later we might get fed up with the scaling problems of TAS - but we could also milk the cartoon for the maximum number of interesting auxiliary craft variants...

That's actually kinda been my take on it as well, and another reason I gave it a different name and didn't make a direct reference to the Copernicus. Like I mentioned earlier, I was speculating what the design might've looked like had the TOS production team actually built a mock-up and model for the live-action series. Figured it would've been much smaller than what TAS implied, would re-use some components, simplify some shapes, etc.

Yep, milking TAS/TOS/Etc for the maximum nunber of (hopefully) interesting variants of just about anything is usually good. Many of us wouldn't have a purpose in life otherwise.

Mark

 

[Timo]

...Any ideas on how to turn Harry Mudd's shuttle into a valid 3D object?

For the interior of the flight deck to match the slit window at upper bow, the craft would have to be a large two-decker. The view of Mudd and Chapel exiting the craft matches this, as does the door size and placement. It would be a bit difficult to fit that into the shuttlebay, though, so perhaps a happy medium could be the answer.

I especially like how Kris Trigwell turned Carter Winston's spacecraft and the middle shuttle to the right-hand (port) side of the "Mudd's Passion" shuttlebay into one and the same runaboutish design. (On a suggestion, to be sure...) It would make sense for Kirk to keep Winston's craft in the bay until reaching the next starbase. That would also for its part help explain why the bay suddenly sported three or four distinct shuttle types, and a total of six craft... Some might have been collected along the way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cary L. Brown]

How come the TOS shuttles have warp-nacelles on the design, yet are not warp-capable?


CuttingEdge100

TOS shuttles have nacelles on them. All a nacelle is, is a structure for holding an external piece of hardware.

Modern jet airliners have nacelles as well... holding their engines. Some fighters have a small nacelle housing electronic warfare or targeting systems. The term is somewhat ubiquitous.

What we know is this:

1) that the TOS shuttle had nacelles.

2) that these nacelles looked similar to, but not identical to, the Enterprise's warp engine nacelles.

3) that the TOS shuttles were supposedly "impulse-only."

4) that the TOS shuttles were designed to carry up to 7 humanoid passengers and crew.

5) that the TOS shuttles were able to traverse distances far beyond that which was practical with a sublight-only vessel, or to traverse those distances in far shorter of a time than would be possible at sublight velocities.

6) that the term "impulse" is a real term, with a real scientific meaning associated with the concept of application of a force (in this case, a "thrust" force) over a period of time.

This is one of the reasons (there are several, mainly from the earlier episodes of TOS) why I concluded that yes, in fact, it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light using "impulse propulsion."

The short form is this: the nacelles on the shuttlecraft aren't "warp engines," but they are subspace field generators... something that predated the concept of warp drive as known in TOS and later. They generate a subspace bubble that increases the equivalent "local speed of light" and decreases the "observed mass" of the object within the bubble, allowing speeds to be FTL (as viewed from the "real" universe) and accelerations far greater for any given application of thrust, but still remaining thrust-based.

This allows for the shuttlecraft idea, the recovery of Enterprise after the "Galactic Barrier" incident in WNMHGB, the idea of the Romulans having fought an interstellar war with "impulse-only" ships, and on and on. It means that "warp drive" as we know it in TOS was invented at some point after the crash of Vina's ship, but prior to the Talos incident. It allows for the Bonaventure we see in TAS to make sense. And with minimal "tweaks" required for the series "Enterprise" it could still ALMOST fit with that series (I can't recall ever seeing the NX-01 going to FTL speed with the impulse exhausts dim, can you?)

 

[Praetor]

^You're pimpin' that theory pretty hard of late, Cary, and I have to say I quite like it. It solves a lot of problems to do with who was going what speed when and how. I also like how it could make 'Enterprise' seem more removed from the later-set series.

 

[Timo]

But why is the theory necessary?

What we know is this:
3) that the TOS shuttles were supposedly "impulse-only."

Why would we know this? Such a thing is never stated in any episode, or even hinted at.

It is not until the TNG episode "Q Who?" where we get our first hint that a shuttle equipped with familiar-looking nacelles might be limited to impulse speeds - because our heroes initially search for a missing, nacelled shuttle within impulse range. But even that is very far from conclusive, as the heroes might have made the decision because they either saw no reason for Picard to go to warp with that shuttle, or observed no warp trails in the vicinity. (Both were false conclusions, of course, since Q stole the shuttle and Picard by no-warp means, but that's neither here nor there.)

The problem suggested by the OP does not exist. In the total absence of direct references to TOS shuttlecraft warp propulsion, TOS shuttles are capable of warp drive if we want them to be, and incapable only if we want them to be.

(Let's also remember why the problem does not exist: shuttlecraft are small. A starship is operated by dozens or hundreds of people, who have to bellow all sorts of silly commands to each other to avoid misunderstandings, such as "Warp five, Mr. Sulu!". A shuttlecraft is flown by a single person, and there is no reason for Kirk to say to himself "Warp two, Mr. Kirk! Aye aye, me!". Hence, no references to shuttlecraft warp drive.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

What we know is this:
3) that the TOS shuttles were supposedly "impulse-only."

Why would we know this? Such a thing is never stated in any episode, or even hinted at.

My DVDs are currently out of reach, but doesn't The Menagerie have the NCC-1701's computer stating "impulse power" when Spock asks it to identify the pursuing starbase shuttle?

TGT

 

[Timo]

That would be "ion engine power". Or in full,

Computer: "Computed. Object is a Class F shuttlecraft. Duranium metal shell, ion engine power."

One can never tell about Trek computers: is the explication of shell type and power source type perhaps relevant or not? Class F might come in several models that have different shells and powerplants - or then duranium shell and ion power (plus other unvoiced factors that Spock doesn't have the patience to listen to) are the factors that establish the object as a Class F shuttlecraft.

FWIW, "ion drive" in "Spock's Brain" is capable of keeping ahead of a starship that, after giving an hour's lead, chases at warp six. Recent Dave Stern novels have postulated a "cascade ion drive", an exotic way to harness exotic powers so that an as such conventional warp drive can reach new speed records in the 2140s. A spectacular failure ends the future of that drive as a starship propulsion system (at which point Henry Archer's antimatter/dilithium superengine steps in), but it may continue as a shuttlecraft power option, incapable of scale-up - giving Scotty a good reason to argue that the Eymorgs could teach Federation engineers a thing or two.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

That would be "ion engine power".

Do'h! As you were.

TGT

 

[Praetor]

That would be "ion engine power". Or in full,

Computer: "Computed. Object is a Class F shuttlecraft. Duranium metal shell, ion engine power."

One can never tell about Trek computers: is the explication of shell type and power source type perhaps relevant or not? Class F might come in several models that have different shells and powerplants - or then duranium shell and ion power (plus other unvoiced factors that Spock doesn't have the patience to listen to) are the factors that establish the object as a Class F shuttlecraft.

FWIW, "ion drive" in "Spock's Brain" is capable of keeping ahead of a starship that, after giving an hour's lead, chases at warp six. Recent Dave Stern novels have postulated a "cascade ion drive", an exotic way to harness exotic powers so that an as such conventional warp drive can reach new speed records in the 2140s. A spectacular failure ends the future of that drive as a starship propulsion system (at which point Henry Archer's antimatter/dilithium superengine steps in), but it may continue as a shuttlecraft power option, incapable of scale-up - giving Scotty a good reason to argue that the Eymorgs could teach Federation engineers a thing or two.

Timo Saloniemi

Combine your 'ion engine power' theory with Cary L. Brown's 'subspace-assisted impulse power' theory and by jove, I think we've got it.

 

[JNG]

FWIW, "ion drive" in "Spock's Brain" is capable of keeping ahead of a starship that, after giving an hour's lead, chases at warp six.

Any chance the "Spock's Brain" flavor could have been conversational shorthand for the polaric ion power business in VOY: "Time and Again"?

 

[Timo]

In my own cozy little universe, Dave Stern's "cascade ion drive" of the Daedalus prototype and Suliban ships; the ion power of Class F shuttlecraft; the ion drive of the eymorg; and the polaric ion power of "Time and Again" are indeed intricately connected. The power source obviously poses a great risk, as per Stern and VOY, and has no doubt been experimented on by all Alpha Quadrant powers and found sufficiently lacking that they can agree on an insterstellar ban on it.

Yet it works on small things like shuttlecraft and perhaps hoppers, flitters, skimmers, rollers and crawlers. Probably you don't risk a subspace chain reaction until you go past a certain reactor size. Anything up from Stern's Daedalus size risks sending your ship to a journey such as the one described in the book, in one or more pieces.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cary L. Brown]

That would be "ion engine power". Or in full,

Computer: "Computed. Object is a Class F shuttlecraft. Duranium metal shell, ion engine power."

One can never tell about Trek computers: is the explication of shell type and power source type perhaps relevant or not? Class F might come in several models that have different shells and powerplants - or then duranium shell and ion power (plus other unvoiced factors that Spock doesn't have the patience to listen to) are the factors that establish the object as a Class F shuttlecraft.

FWIW, "ion drive" in "Spock's Brain" is capable of keeping ahead of a starship that, after giving an hour's lead, chases at warp six. Recent Dave Stern novels have postulated a "cascade ion drive", an exotic way to harness exotic powers so that an as such conventional warp drive can reach new speed records in the 2140s. A spectacular failure ends the future of that drive as a starship propulsion system (at which point Henry Archer's antimatter/dilithium superengine steps in), but it may continue as a shuttlecraft power option, incapable of scale-up - giving Scotty a good reason to argue that the Eymorgs could teach Federation engineers a thing or two.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, (back into "pimping mode" here!), this all makes perfect sense using my "FTL impulse" definition.

Ion engines are real... there are lab-test versions in existence today, though none have actually been used in real spacecraft yet. And an ion engine IS an "impulse engine." It uses electromagnetic fields to accelerate particles... which create a "specific impulse" providing thrust.

So this works nicely for the shuttle... and even allows the "Spock's Brain" line to seem practical.

How's that, you ask? Well, remember, Scotty was impressed by how fast the ship was moving, and noticed it was "Ion power." Well... imagine if the reason he was impressed wasn't that it was ion power, but rather that they were able to get such incredible speeds out of ion propulsion. Perhaps, for instance, they able to create a "transwarp bubble" where simple impulse propulsion was able to provide velocities far in excess of those possible with the 1701's warp drive? By my argument, "FTL impulse" in Federation terms is limited to the equivalent of about WF4.2 (old scale). So the "Eyemorgs" were able to get the equivalent of, say, WF15 or so out of ion (aka "impulse") propulsion... that makes sense as something which would impress Scotty, doesn't it?

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Ion engines are real... there are lab-test versions in existence today, though none have actually been used in real spacecraft yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Missions

TGT

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Ion engines are real... there are lab-test versions in existence today, though none have actually been used in real spacecraft yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Missions

TGT

Ah... I stand corrected... apparently a few HAVE been used. So much the better huh?

I've been following this one quite closely, by the way... I see it as a real precursor to actual "impulse engines" in Trekkian terms, but in real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_specific_impulse_magnetoplasma_rocket