Was it Bennett's direction that made it feel disconnected for you?
TOS Purists of TrekBBS - Unite!
- Thread starter TOS Purist
- Start date
Was it Bennett's direction that made it feel disconnected for you?
number6
Vice Admiral
TWOK had the distinction of being the first Trek not under the control or guidance of the creative team that made TOS and TAS.
That said, it was easily the first (and in my mind only) of the films that really captured the spirit of the original show.
I look at TMP/TWOK as the Cage/WNMHGB of the film series.
I dislike TMP as a film not only because of its pacing, but because its a passionless remake of The Changeling. It still didn't stop me from seeing it in the theatres multiple times back in 1979-1980n because it was the only new Trek and the only film.
That said, it was easily the first (and in my mind only) of the films that really captured the spirit of the original show.
I look at TMP/TWOK as the Cage/WNMHGB of the film series.
I dislike TMP as a film not only because of its pacing, but because its a passionless remake of The Changeling. It still didn't stop me from seeing it in the theatres multiple times back in 1979-1980n because it was the only new Trek and the only film.
number6, could you please give some specific examples of what about TMP you felt captured the spirit of TOS? I am genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts, as "the Spirit" seems to be something that is a bit hard to quantify/identify, and it seems to not be discussed with specific examples in these postings.
Although I, too, watched the movie several times and enjoy it for what it is, I am not sure what you see that "feels" so much like TOS. True, the crew was up against with some unknown that they came to understand and then were able to deal with (as we saw with the Horta, Landru, etc., etc.), but -apart from going into the movie knowing the ship and the characters- most of the familiar
behaviors, humor, pacing was not there.
What brought TOS spirit there for you?
Although I, too, watched the movie several times and enjoy it for what it is, I am not sure what you see that "feels" so much like TOS. True, the crew was up against with some unknown that they came to understand and then were able to deal with (as we saw with the Horta, Landru, etc., etc.), but -apart from going into the movie knowing the ship and the characters- most of the familiar
behaviors, humor, pacing was not there.
What brought TOS spirit there for you?
^
He said that TWOK captured the TOS spirit, not TMP.
He said that TWOK captured the TOS spirit, not TMP.
That's not a bad analogy. I'm inclined to agree to some extent.
Oops! My bad. You're right. I misremembered it.
Thank you, BolianAdmiral, for pointing out my mistake! (That's what I get for reading and then posting while running on an empty stomach.....)
I stand corrected.... number6, and I do completely agree with you on what you say about TWOK and how it captures the spirit of TOS. No explanation needed!!
I stand corrected.... number6, and I do completely agree with you on what you say about TWOK and how it captures the spirit of TOS. No explanation needed!!
I'm pretty sure a logical, sensible argument can be made for why 40+ year old Enterprise was delegated to training status, with decommissioning looming in the near future, not the least of which being the upcoming Excelsior class Enterprise (almost certainly on the construction schedule by the time of TWOK-TSFS-TVH, pending the results of the tests on the Excelsior itself). The only spanner in the works being when Kirk stole the Enterprise and destroyed her a few years ahead of Starfleet's planned decommissioning date, prompting the early decommissioning of the Yorktown and recommissioning her, for the last few years of her planned service life, as the Enterprise-A.
As for uniform changes, get serious. Uniforms in the real life military get changed by headquarters bigwigs all the time, sometimes on a whim (ex: All Army troops can now wear black berets for no other reason that the Secretary of the Army under Clinton said so, which the Rangers didn't find the least bit amusing, prompting them to change to tan berets). Translate this to Star Trek, and I imagine it wasn't all that endearing for the experienced personnel when, around the time of "The Corbomite Maneuver", they suddenly had to go back to black collars, like they wore in the Academy. And let's not even discuss the TMP jammies...
As for uniform changes, get serious. Uniforms in the real life military get changed by headquarters bigwigs all the time, sometimes on a whim (ex: All Army troops can now wear black berets for no other reason that the Secretary of the Army under Clinton said so, which the Rangers didn't find the least bit amusing, prompting them to change to tan berets). Translate this to Star Trek, and I imagine it wasn't all that endearing for the experienced personnel when, around the time of "The Corbomite Maneuver", they suddenly had to go back to black collars, like they wore in the Academy. And let's not even discuss the TMP jammies...
Works for me. 
I agree with that...writers, producers, actors all agreed STII FELT more like TOS. Even Abrams ST09 feels more like TOS than STTMP did, but TMP has its own virtues. It feels more like 2001: ASO, and that's its own animal all together.
RAMA
Quite, and despite my favor toward TWOK, I still enjoy watching the ABC-TV version of TMP immensely.
Quite so. Sat down and watched "The Search for Spock" tonight, and felt the same way. Weak...
Bennett didn't direct the film. Nicholas Meyer did.
Much of it just stunk for me. I didn't like the new uniforms. I didn't like the setup from the "new start" of TMP to being relegated to training status. How Khan gets loose is so damned contrived from the Reliant not knowing where the hell they are to how Khan and company learn how to run the ship so quickly. And whereas in "Space Seed" Khan's followers were a mixture of types new the same as as himself now they all looked like 20 year olds from California.
I liked the film's energy and many of the character moments, but much of the rest of it was one silly things after another.
Odd, I thought the cast got it as far as their characters were concerned.
Yes, one aspect of the film that really bugged me was the contrast of Khan's followers compared to the SF cadets. While I do understand that Khan's followers were adapted to survive in a difficult environment (so they SHOULD indeed be fit), did they all have to look so much like young fitness models who had just finished working out on the Nautilus equipment while in their strategically torn clothes?
(.... and YES, where were all the "old guys" in Khan's ranks?)
Must Trek (often) portray other individuals in Star Fleet (other than our heroes) in such a weak, negative light in order to make our main characters look so much more heroic? The cadets seemed just awful in comparison to Khan's followers. If these cadets were the best of what the Federation's cultures had to offer, Scotty's nephew should definitely not have been the only one that stayed at his post. I know that these were "fresh recruits", but these guys ran away like daffy English Kaniggets from some Killer Rabbit. We should have seen more valor there.
'Course it has been a while since I saw the movie. Might not be quite as bad as I remember. Despite this complaint, I really do like TWOK.....
(.... and YES, where were all the "old guys" in Khan's ranks?)
Must Trek (often) portray other individuals in Star Fleet (other than our heroes) in such a weak, negative light in order to make our main characters look so much more heroic? The cadets seemed just awful in comparison to Khan's followers. If these cadets were the best of what the Federation's cultures had to offer, Scotty's nephew should definitely not have been the only one that stayed at his post. I know that these were "fresh recruits", but these guys ran away like daffy English Kaniggets from some Killer Rabbit. We should have seen more valor there.
'Course it has been a while since I saw the movie. Might not be quite as bad as I remember. Despite this complaint, I really do like TWOK.....
I love the "This is Ceti Alpha V!" line and delivery but treating beaming down to the wrong planet as if it were the same as getting lost on some back country dirt road is ridiculous. The movie has enough going for it that I still enjoy it, but this is as idiotic a moment as anything in Abrams' film or Nemesis.
There's at least two "old guys" in Khan's followers. The rest of them are, in my estimation, the children of Khan and his followers. I suspect Khan killed off most of his competition.
I think Kirk said it best when he said it was a boatload of children that they were taking into a combat situation. You had several who failed in combat, but you had some who didn't. I think it was for the point of drama that you had more fail in the situation than succeeded.
I think it would've been disappointing to Spock to see most of the cadets and trainees run and hide, but that's not explored in the context of the film.
It's one of those things in a film that makes no sense. I remember watching it at the Phipps Plaza in Atlanta and thinking that. However, it was a dramatic scene, and while scientifically implausible (but not impossible), this plot device is easily dismissed.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I'm still running 3 pages back from "current", so this may have already been said, but:
Last edited:
It is.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
What the frak is happening to posts around here? I lost a good 10 minutes worth of work on my last post...
