TOS- Overrated?

[sonak]

Didn't say that I cared whether they want my help or not. They exist on a planet within my borders, which makes them my problem. Their existence on that planet potentially compromises my borders. Their existence on that planet puts me in the position of potential conflict with one or more of my neighbors.

So I simply move them and strip the planet of the resource. If in fifty or sixty years when the planet is again inhabitable they're more than welcomed to go back.

They die if you force them off the planet. Now you can of course play Dougherty and claim that they were never meant to be immortal and I can play Picard and claim that these are sovereign people. You have no right to decide their fate.
What happens if you force a neighbour out of his house or your apartment and take over his property? I wanna hear you talking to the judge about you having had good reasons to force him or having wanted to preempt future conflicts with another neighbour.

Wrong is wrong, no matter how you try to spin it.

yes, you are wrong, no two ways about it.

the relocation wasn't going to kill them, they were going to live out their stagnant, unproductive lives somewhere else.

they're like the planet in TOS' "this side of paradise." you must hate Kirk in that one.


though your knowledge of TOS being what it is, I suspect you've never seen it.

 

[horatio83]

So I'm getting lectured on ethics by a guy who thinks that the property rights of a few are more important than the health of billions, AND who thinks that letting certain cultures die out because they're not technically advanced enough is okay.




I think not.

You do indeed not think, that is your problem.

Seriously, if you think that the property right of a few are less important than the health of billions you advocate a radical redistribution of resources from the first to the third world. I doubt that you are a communist but if I am mistaken you can of course correct and enlighten me.
My opinion is somewhere between these extremes, I am for public health care and stuff like that but not against an undermining of property right. I am also against trade-off of lives, killing 600 people to save billions. I am though for taking the money of the richest 600 folks and redistributing it such that millions are better off.

I am all ears for your opinion about the matter. Perhaps with capital letters at the beginning of your sentences.

the relocation wasn't going to kill them, they were going to live out their stagnant, unproductive lives somewhere else.

That's wrong. Watch the move again.

 

[BillJ]

They die if you force them off the planet.

Do they instantly die if they are removed from their planet? Or do they just return to their normal aging process and live another 70 or more years like most people of their physical age would. I don't recall this being addressed in the film, so I was just under the impression that once they were relocated they would just move on with their lives, only now they would no longer be immortal and so they would age like everyone else.
Is there an official answer to this?

The So'na are Ba'ku who have been away from their homeplanet for some time. So there you have your answer, they literally fall apart and without the high-tech medicine of the So'na they fall apart even faster.

You mean they grow old and die. The S'ona had left the world at least fifty years earlier.

 

[sonak]

They die if you force them off the planet.

Do they instantly die if they are removed from their planet? Or do they just return to their normal aging process and live another 70 or more years like most people of their physical age would. I don't recall this being addressed in the film, so I was just under the impression that once they were relocated they would just move on with their lives, only now they would no longer be immortal and so they would age like everyone else.
Is there an official answer to this?

The So'na are Ba'ku who have been away from their homeplanet for some time. So there you have your answer, they literally fall apart and without the high-tech medicine of the So'na they fall apart even faster.

yeah, it's called AGING. Which is what happens to others too, that you're not concerned about at all.


why are you a Baku supremacist?

 

[sonak]

So I'm getting lectured on ethics by a guy who thinks that the property rights of a few are more important than the health of billions, AND who thinks that letting certain cultures die out because they're not technically advanced enough is okay.




I think not.

You do indeed not think, that is your problem.

Seriously, if you think that the property right of a few are less important than the health of billions you advocate a radical redistribution of resources from the first to the third world. I doubt that you are a communist but if I am mistaken you can of course correct and enlighten me.

well, if the cure for cancer was in the soil of some rich, gated community, I'd definitely favor moving them to get at the cure to help millions.


I guess that makes me an imperialist to you

 

[BillJ]

why are you a Baku supremacist?

Probably because the vast majority are pretty white people.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

They die if you force them off the planet.

Do they instantly die if they are removed from their planet? Or do they just return to their normal aging process and live another 70 or more years like most people of their physical age would. I don't recall this being addressed in the film, so I was just under the impression that once they were relocated they would just move on with their lives, only now they would no longer be immortal and so they would age like everyone else.
Is there an official answer to this?

The So'na are Ba'ku who have been away from their homeplanet for some time. So there you have your answer, they literally fall apart and without the high-tech medicine of the So'na they fall apart even faster.

Ahhh, okay. Thank you for the clarification. Well, that does indeed complicate things.
So if the So'na were to return to the Baku planet, would they return to the way they looked prior to leaving the planet in the first place? Sorry I'm deviating from our discussion a little, but considering we're already completely off topic I don't think it really matters anymore.

EDIT: Just read some of the recent posts. Are you positive that they just fall apart when they're removed from the planet unless they use the So'nas equipment? Or do they just live out the rest of their lives like anyone would, getting older until one day years from now they die?

 

[horatio83]

See your stacking the deck in a way that's not present in the film. Now what if your neighbors house is on your property? How much different does your appearance in front of the judge become?

I'm not willing to spend Federation lives on six hundred squatters and I'm not allowing six hundred squatters to be slaughtered because they don't want to move. Here in the States, we can move people out of their houses if there's proof continuing to live there can be hazardous to their continued health. Usually it because the property is unsound but there can be other reasons as well.

Stacking the deck? You talk about Romulans taking over the planet, claim that it is on Federation territory and accuse me of stacking the deck?
No matter how much you try to distort the text, the Ba'ku are not Federation citizens. I know, I know, for an imperialist everybody has to bow to his will.

 

[xortex]

Federation authority doesn't come from the Admirals or the Captains, it comes from the judge advocate's office and the interstellar law which Picard would be more aware of than any of us.

 

[sonak]

actually, there's no reason why the Baku can't receive the magic particles once they've been removed, either, which makes the supposed "dilemma" even stupider



I apologize again for the thread de-railment, guys

 

[BillJ]

Do they instantly die if they are removed from their planet? Or do they just return to their normal aging process and live another 70 or more years like most people of their physical age would. I don't recall this being addressed in the film, so I was just under the impression that once they were relocated they would just move on with their lives, only now they would no longer be immortal and so they would age like everyone else.
Is there an official answer to this?

The So'na are Ba'ku who have been away from their homeplanet for some time. So there you have your answer, they literally fall apart and without the high-tech medicine of the So'na they fall apart even faster.

Ahhh, okay. Thank you for the clarification. Well, that does indeed complicate things.
So if the So'na were to return to the Baku planet, would they return to the way they looked prior to leaving the planet in the first place? Sorry I'm deviating from our discussion a little, but considering we're already completely off topic I don't think it really matters anymore.

They were dying of old age.

Half a century ago they conquered two primitive races, the Tarlac and the Ellora,

PICARD: Then the Son'a can establish a separate colony on this planet until we do.
DOUGHERTY: It would take ten years of normal exposure to begin to reverse their condition. Some of them won't survive that long. Besides, they don't want to live in the middle of the Briar Patch. ...Who would?

 

[sonak]

Federation aythority doesn't come from the Admirals or the Captains, it comes from the judge advocate and the interstellar law which Picard would be more aware of than any of us.

yeah, and the Council favored Dougherty's plan-which means they had no legal problem with it, good point

 

[horatio83]

Ahhh, okay. Thank you for the clarification. Well, that does indeed complicate things.
So if the So'na were to return to the Baku planet, would they return to the way they looked prior to leaving the planet in the first place? Sorry I'm deviating from our discussion a little, but considering we're already completely off topic I don't think it really matters anymore.

EDIT: Just read some of the recent posts. Are you positive that they just fall apart when they're removed from the planet unless they use the So'nas equipment? Or do they just live out the rest of their lives like anyone would, getting older until one day years from now they die?

It is not merely a cosmetic matter.

SO'NA DOCTOR: Your body is producing far too many toxins. We've reached the limit of genetic manipulation.
RU'AFO: I won't need any more genetic manipulation if our Federation friends will allow us to complete this mission.

About the folks who claim that the Ba'ku would also profit from whatever the scientists do with the radiation, why didn't the Federation politely ask them if it is such a win-win situation? Not to mention that if Picard had not interfered the So'na might have backstabbed the Federation in another fashion. So in the end nobody but the So'na might have actually gained from Operation Concentration Camp.

 

[BillJ]

Stacking the deck? You talk about Romulans taking over the planet, claim that it is on Federation territory and accuse me of stacking the deck?
No matter how much you try to distort the text, the Ba'ku are not Federation citizens. I know, I know, for an imperialist everybody has to bow to his will.

So you think the S'ona are just going to give up if the Federation says no? There's logical extrapolation of events and then there's changing what's actually in the film.

 

[xortex]

Federation aythority doesn't come from the Admirals or the Captains, it comes from the judge advocate and the interstellar law which Picard would be more aware of than any of us.

yeah, and the Council favored Dougherty's plan-which means they had no legal problem with it, good point

If that is true, then Picard must have known something that the Admiral was lying about that made his actions illegal and also consequently learning of the sona's plans and ambitions which were contrary to everybody's plans. They had their own agenda to take over power which is why they killed the Admiral.

America will often use and support one enemy country to eliminate another. We used to have death squads too.
We used the Sona who it wound up were using us as well and Picard must have known or suspected that. Means doesn't justify ends. Get into it wrong, come out of it wrong. Want too much, lose the little bit you have.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

This is confusing.

So, let's get this straight. If the So'na were to harvest the power of the planet, they would be able to rejuvenate themselves and live forever? If this is true, doesn't that mean the Baku could also use the power properties and continue to be immortal long after leaving their planet? If that's true, then what did the Baku have to complain about? The only thing they would be missing out on is their village, but they would still be immortal. For that matter, everyone in the Federation would be immortal. So why did the Baku insist on not leaving?

Please correct me if I've gotten something wrong (which, more than likely, I have)

 

[horatio83]

Stacking the deck? You talk about Romulans taking over the planet, claim that it is on Federation territory and accuse me of stacking the deck?
No matter how much you try to distort the text, the Ba'ku are not Federation citizens. I know, I know, for an imperialist everybody has to bow to his will.

So you think the S'ona are just going to give up if the Federation says no? There's logical extrapolation of events and then there's changing what's actually in the film.

You just changed your reading from "oh, the Rommies might take the planet" to "what if the So'na try to conquer the planet on their own?" and then accuse me of messing with the text? Pathetic.
But go on, it is fascinating to see you trying to grasp for even more wicked excuses for your imperialistic desires. Now we are already on the level of, well, the bad guys take the planet anyway so let's grab ourselves a piece of the action.

 

[horatio83]

This is confusing.

So, let's get this straight. If the So'na were to harvest the power of the planet, they would be able to rejuvenate themselves and live forever? If this is true, doesn't that mean the Baku could also use the power properties and continue to be immortal long after leaving their planet? If that's true, then what did the Baku have to complain about? The only thing they would be missing out on is their village, but they would still be immortal. For that matter, everyone in the Federation would be immortal. So why did the Baku insist on not leaving?

Please correct me if I've gotten something wrong (which, more than likely, I have)

The Ba'ku try to live with simple technology. They would most likely refuse to take the "metaphasic medicine".
Furthermore the So'na are basically angry about their parents and partly blaming them for their medical misery. Ru'afo was willing to kill all his ancestors. I doubt that he would have been eager to share the medicine out of the goodness of his heart.

 

[sonak]

This is confusing.

So, let's get this straight. If the So'na were to harvest the power of the planet, they would be able to rejuvenate themselves and live forever? If this is true, doesn't that mean the Baku could also use the power properties and continue to be immortal long after leaving their planet? If that's true, then what did the Baku have to complain about? The only thing they would be missing out on is their village, but they would still be immortal. For that matter, everyone in the Federation would be immortal. So why did the Baku insist on not leaving?

Please correct me if I've gotten something wrong (which, more than likely, I have)

no, you're basically right. The Baku just didn't want to leave their homes. It's just a poorly written movie.

 

[BillJ]

You just changed your reading from "oh, the Rommies might take the planet" to "what if the So'na try to conquer the planet on their own?" and then accuse me of messing with the text? Pathetic.
But go on, it is fascinating to see you trying to grasp for even more wicked excuses for your imperialistic desires. Now we are already on the level of, well, the bad guys take the planet anyway so let's grab ourselves a piece of the action.

You might want to sharpen up on your understanding of English because I said nothing about the S'ona taking over. If they struck one partnership to snag the particles and it fell through, logic says they may try to get a different partner to help them.