Don't get personal. What the hell is going on in here lately?
I think it's my fault T'Bonz. Something about my pure logic just drives people crazy!
TOS -- mo money, mo money, mo money.
- Thread starter T'Girl
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I think it's my fault T'Bonz. Something about my pure logic just drives people crazy!
I used to think the moneyless thing was unrealistic but then I came to realize I hadn't looked at it the right way.
It's said thanks to technology and aquisition of resources (planets, star systems), the Federation's resources are virtually unlimited and there's virtually no scarcity. In other words, the Federation is obscenely rich.
The Federation is so rich with resources, money becomes meaningless in trying to quantify it. You know that expression "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it"? Well, Federation citizens never have to ask how much it costs.
Robert
It's said thanks to technology and aquisition of resources (planets, star systems), the Federation's resources are virtually unlimited and there's virtually no scarcity. In other words, the Federation is obscenely rich.
The Federation is so rich with resources, money becomes meaningless in trying to quantify it. You know that expression "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it"? Well, Federation citizens never have to ask how much it costs.
Robert
Here's what I always thought: the bare basics are made available to you (food replicator, housing, basic item replicator, housing). For higher end living, you have to make some sort of contribution to society, be it a basic replicator repairman or high level scientist. For evey hour you work, you earn credits, which can be used to replicate goods your standard replicator can't replicate, or save up for some form of transportation (be it an impulse powered pod, warp capable shuttle, or even your own ship).
I think that is a really valid theory in terms of things like land, employment, and purchasing non-replicable goods, but I think there are only two types of materials in the universe:
1. Things replicators can replicate.
2. Things replicators can't replicate.
If something is mostly carbon and made of simple, inert molecules that can be rearranged to form, then a replicator can do that. We've seen on the show that this includes complex things like phasers and shuttle parts. I don't see any kind of 'high-end replicator market' that isn't artificially generated, which goes against the no-money ethos completely.
However we know there are many things that can't be replicated (latinum, bio-memetic gel, living matter, genuine alcohol) and these things, by being scarce in an otherwise scarcity-free environment, would be valuable in a way we can barely conceive of in our own environment. What does 'value' mean in a no-money environment? Good point. I think your credit system is a pretty good explanation- the Picards were probably a very 'rich' family because they made something (genuine wine) that a replicator can't. Likewise the Siskos, because the service they provided was not something that a replicator could take the place of- atmosphere and genuine food. So it's not unreasonable that the Picards earned credit by making wine and then exchanged some of that credit to the Siskos for a night at their lovely restaurant, and so on. This system pretty much answers the no-money advocates and the "I can't believe it's not capitalism." no-imagination cynical nitpickers.
So people would engage in effort and be compensated with units of value.
But there is obviously a third possibility, things that could be replicated but aren't. There are a lot of references to mining in Star Trek's 24th century (all the series really), the starships are constructed of metalic alloys by canon, the city of San Fransisco has a lot of big metal building, one of the first things the Federation did in the gamma quadrant was it went looking for planets to mine.
So apparently metal that is extracted from rock has some form a preferable quality to metal that is replicated. Perhaps simply because it's just cheaper to obtain that way? Remember, replicators consume a lot of power. If you're constructing a starship with a quarter of a megatonne of metals, or a city with hundreds of towers like San Fransisco, replicating that much material might be beyond the total energy output of your entire planet, basically you couldn't afford it.
The alternative would be to mine the materials out of a asteroid or a distant world or even your own world, transport the ore to a production facility (smelt/blend/forge) and manufacture your starships and buildings this way. It would make more economic sense. That's assuming of course you have a market economy and money
.
There's absolutely nothing in the scenario described that requires money or a market economy. You go and get the ore and you bring it to your planet and you use it to make ships and buildings. Where is money required for that operation?
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
I don't imagine that replicators are building atoms of elements, rather the use existing elements to create the item. For instance, If you wanted a fork it would use nickel, carbon, and chromium to make some stainless steel and shape it into a fork. When you were done, it would be broken down into it's original atoms and stored.
Something similar would be used for food but it could be stored in a form that's a bit more complex such as proteins, carbohydrates and fats. Thus, food may actually be less energy intensive than non-food items.
Something similar would be used for food but it could be stored in a form that's a bit more complex such as proteins, carbohydrates and fats. Thus, food may actually be less energy intensive than non-food items.
Money (or value) enters into it if you have to make decisions based upon how much it costs to do something.
It would certainly be less complicated to just replicate components to build a starship, so why don't they? Why not simply build a vast number of power reactors, and also build the required number of gigantic replicators (none of which "cost" anything) and just replicate the pieces needed to assemble the starships?
Well, the most obvious answer is that they can't, something is preventing them from doing it. But what? I think it's because they actual possess an economy. It requires less money and manpower to mine/ship/manufacture the components, than the money and manpower to build the reactors and replicate the components in orbit right next to the assemble dock.
Basically what I'm saying is what comes out of a replicator isn't "free."
Not only isn't it free, it cost even more to replicate items than to produce the exact same item using methods besides replication. This is why the people who produce starships go through the laborious process of exploring for ores, setting up a mining base, mining ore, carrying ore interstellar distances and turning that ore into a finished product without once using a replicator. Because it's cheaper economically than replicating the exact same end product.
None of this would be of any concern if things like economic costs, government budgets and allocation of funds didn't mattered.
Just the motivation to do it in the first place.
Credits... in TOS... what are they?...
they certainly sound like money to me...just not paper or coins...put on the plastic perhaps?
Apparently you sell things for them...and buy things with them....
to me that means MONEY...
and no amount of argument will change my mind..
they certainly sound like money to me...just not paper or coins...put on the plastic perhaps?
Apparently you sell things for them...and buy things with them....
to me that means MONEY...
and no amount of argument will change my mind..
Yes, but you wouldn't make decisions based on that in this scenario since all it 'costs' is effort.
There's absolutely nothing onscreen to contradict that this is precisely what they have done.
Of course they possess an economy- it's just utterly different from one that you or I can conceive of, because we don't have replicators.
Then why in the world would the most replicated item we ever see need to be replicated? Tea. Earl Grey. Hot. It's about the easiest thing in the world to produce. You pour boiling water on some leaves. Nothing could be less energy-intensive than making tea, yet according to your extremely twisted logic, when Picard orders some tea he is in fact costing several billions of dollars in... what? It's well established they have virtually unlimited energy thanks to the warp drive, and that they can switch matter to energy and back very easily.
Except when they build the Delta Flyer (and, presumably, a large number of shuttles) on the Voyager they never go mining, never smelt ore, never explore for ore. They just replicate the required pieces on the spot. You are grabbing at straws to justify your inability to let go of the idea of money? Is it really so difficult for you to imagine a world in which everything you want just appears?
None of it is a concern. You've dug your own hole in this argument. You are referring to transactions and concerns that are never represented on the show. Picard never worries about budgets, or resupplies, or energy costs, or his salary, or buying things, or his credit rating, or saving up to buy a house, or anything. He doesn't have any money, there is no money to be had, everyone just replicates whatever they want the moment they want it. This is totally obvious.
Again: It's super-sad when people say that they only thing they can imagine motiving them to do something is money. This can't possibly be true. There are loads of very motivated, very active people who have more money that they can ever spend, and they choose to live lives that help and benefit others. Not to make more money, but to be of benefit to society. Your logic suggests these people should not exist, but they do. I submit to you that if everyone was so well off they they no longer needed a system to differentiate how much one person had over another person, people would still work in order to help each other and society. To deny this hypothesis is the definition of cynicism.
Goldbug, obviously many civilizations and traders use credits or latinum or whatever in order to facilitate trade. The Federation is not one of these civilizations. That's not to say they don't have a trading standard, but can you honestly imagine the difficulties of an interstellar exchange rate? Why would the Ferengi want hew-mon 'credits'? Credits mean nothing to them. Latinum means nothing to humans. They would only barter for GOODS. That's called trade- it does not require money.
yes there are numerous onscreen contradictions, they have interstellar mining. That means the Federation isn't replicating those metals.
During the Voyager episode Investigations the warp coil linings are damaged and need to be rebuilt using a verterium and cortenide alloy. When ask for the location of the needed materials, Neelix said ...
In other words they are in fact buying minerals.
Compared to a full size starship, the Delta Flyer is small, it's also small compared to Voyager's engines. When the Delta Flyer was originally constructed there was a pressing need and a obvious time limit, Voyager could not leave their location to seek out materials, they had no choice but to replicate certain portions of the Delta Flyer on the spot, but don't forget that part of the Flyer also came from existing stored components, there was no effort to replicate all of the Delta Flyer.
As posted earlier I don't believe that in the normal course of replicating that water is created, it just moved from one part of the Enterprise to another. When tea is ordered, all the replicator is doing is changing the temperature and inserting the tea flavoring. And yes, it likely does cost/consume more energy (hydrogen and antimatter) than producing tea without a replicator.
Fuel. power, energy. I would imagine (see I can) that producing a cup of tea is different than producing the materials for a million tonne starship.
The warp drive doesn't produce energy, it consumes it, the warp core produces energy.
During the Voyager episode Retrospect Janeway was in negotiations for the purchase of a projectile cannon, payment would be in the form of a technology transfer. Not all commerce involves money (credits), but there was an exchange of value.
If I buy your horse with a bushel of grain, that's an exchange of value.
I 've thought about the economics of Start Trek too on several occasions and came to this same conclusion: communism or socialism.
I guess if their are unlimited resources via replicators, and a galaxy full of planets to live on (land), then scarcity becomes a null issue.
Oh, yeah, no, absolutely, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't valuable materials that can't be replicated and the Federation does indeed need to mine for them. I'll totally concede that. I just figure that instead of going:
FEDERATION: "Hey we need you to mine for these ores."
MINERS: "How much will you give us?"
FEDERATION: "Well, let's see, 3000 credits?"
it goes:
FEDERATION: "Hey we need you to mine for these ores."
MINERS: "How much will you give us?"
FEDERATION: "As much as you can replicate."
MINERS: "But we already have that."
FEDERATION: "Exactly. See you in three years."
Actually what you just described sounded like a trade. Federation credits, if we are to imagine such a thing, would be literally valueless in the Delta Quadrant. Or anywhere outside of the Federation. Or anywhere at all, since there are replicators.
But that is pure conjecture on your part, being made purely to enhance your illogical argument, and its conflicted by onscreen evidence. In 'The Survivors', Riker beams down a portable replicator. He doesn't say: "By the way, this beams previously existing foodstuffs to it's location." It wouldn't be a replicator if it did that, it'd be a transporter. the replicator is clearly a matter converter that makes matériel according to a programmed pattern. Picard asks the replicator for 21st century clothing. The computer doesn't beam it from elsewhere, it makes the clothes, to order. You see this all the time on the show. You're basically misrepresenting what a replicator does in order to further your argument- it's disingenuous.
While a starship would certainly have non-replicable elements (bio-memetic gel in Voyager's case, certainly), I see no difference between replicating a cup of tea or a piece of plasteel for a door or transparent aluminum for a window.
Quite so- amended with apologies.
I've never said things don't have value, I've said money would be worthless and pointless in a replicator based economy, and doubly worthless in an interstellar economy. Trade would only function in an interstellar economy. What value would credits have to an alien species? Only goods would be valuable- non-replicate goods.
If I bought your horse with my bushel of grain and then just turned around an replicated another bushel of grain, I'd have gained a horse and lost nothing. See how that breaks down?
Keep in mind that pure communism as Marx envisioned it has never actually existed on planet earth. What we call Communism as practiced on earth is actually a form of corrupted socialism, which Marx saw as a 'stepping stone' to communism. This stepping stone can probably never be crossed over, seeing as humans are corrupt and socialism constrains personal freedom in an unacceptable way.
In case you didn't realize it, that exactly how it works.. Congratulations, you made me dig out my copy of ST:TNG Technical Manual (by Sternbech and Okuda), The Enterprise D only had two replicators, one on deck 12 and one on deck 34, the panel with the slots you saw in various rooms were nothing but receivers. The item you request is made in the closest of the two replicators and sent (by cable/conduit) to the receiver where it's rematerialized. The replicator terminal is just a receiver. It doesn't actual replicate anything.
The matter stream of food or clothing or glass of water that you request is "beamed" (your word, not mine) through the cable to the receiver.
According to the tech manual, that was written by the shows technical advisers, "These devices dematerialize a measured quantity of raw material," also "the use of this raw material keeps the energy cost within reason."
The organic food raw material and the general raw material (that the replicator makes non-food items out of) are different and are keep separate from each other. Only 82 percent of food can be reclaimed from waste, so "raw food stock is normally replaced at starbase resupply," The system also reclaims "waste water."
Your food (clothing) isn't being made from "energy."
The replicator that Riker beamed down would have had to already contained organic raw materials, when they emptied out (unless refilled) the replicator would have stopped working. If the portable replicator had a fold down toilet, this would have extend it's supply of organic materials, but it still would have in time run out.
Nope, my post is based upon the way the show's technical advisers described the replicator. I guess Destructor you could say that it's pure conjecture on their parts though.
After Picard requested the clothing, the replicator aboard the Enterprise E dematerialized the required amount of non-organic raw material from storage, altered the matter stream, and then sent the matter stream to the delivery location.
I never said the replicator beamed inside the Enterprise, that was you. I said it was "moved." While it is never stated, it is possible that the replicator uses organic raw material to rematerialize water, I still think that it instead dematerializes water from a tank, "moves" it by matter stream to the destination and rematerialized it as part of a food dish or even as part of Picard's tea. Water is a very common ingredient in food and it would be silly from a energy point of view to be continusly making it. As part of the reclaiming process, all organic matter would be removed from the waste water and it would then simply be routed into a tank, it would not be altered into organic raw material.
Anytime you walk into a store and buy a can of soup, regardless if you use money or another item of value, that called trade.
What I was actual describing was a monetary system, I never said they were using Federation credits (that came from you). By definition, a monetary system is a medium of exchange, anything that is accepted as a standard of value and measure of wealth in a particular region.
I was also making the point that Janeway preferred to buy the materials, as opposed to replicating them, never in the episode did anyone say one way or the other that the materials couldn't be replicated, if the ship had been distant from outside resources (like when they replicated portions of the Delta Flyer) likely in that situation they would have replicated the materials. It was "cheaper" in terms of resouces (energy and time) to buy them from a mining consortium. If they had had to replicate the engine parts, they might have had to sit there for days or weeks while the warp core fed power to the replicator and the replicator emptied out the raw material bins.
So a cubic centimeter of cotton candy and a cubic centimeter of "plaststeel" would be the same? You don't think the molecular density might be slightly different? That one would take more raw materials, more power to build inside the matter stream?
And how many bushels of grain does it take to operate your replicator?
Try it from this direction, hypothetically your replicator runs off of a warp core, which is fueled by antimatter. You request a kilogram of antimatter, how much antimatter is going to be consumed in the warp core in order to produce the antimatter you requested?
Is it one for one, maybe three for one? How much power is consumed in the process?
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My issue has been that there will always be a need for people to do the shit jobs. The kind done by those who have no other way of making a living. Is there a person who cleans out the tampon box in the ladies room for the enjoyment of it? Or who shovels crap out of the monkey cages? Or who deals with bitchy women at Macy's during a sale? Really, without some reward system, or the threat of losing income, sooner or later there would be a collapse in structure of work days. I work 8 hours a day because my company requires it. They also require me to do this at set times. But if we're all doing it for fun and fulfillment, who cares when I get to my desk? Not my boss, who's busy being fulfilled in his office with his secretary. And even if I love something, there are days I just want to laze about with my thumb up my ass. If not for the need to earn a living, I wouldn't get up as early and get moving. Or get up at all. If a guy doesn't get paid for cleaning my pool, why should be be there on the same day every week? Even if he loves to clean everybody's pools, if he screws up, it's not like he's losing a customer. So instead of money, what would be the reward system on 24th century Earth? "Credits" was the answer in TOS years, and that makes sense. Even if it's not some kind of credit card, it could still be a bank of points you need to accumulate in order to keep your house or something. You can do whatever you want, but it has to benefit mankind in some way (there goes Kanye West), even if it's only a couple of folks.
But honestly, if the idea is for people to be working because it's awesome, then all the shit jobs had better be automated. Like that guy in Turbolift Control Picard tried to contact in Hide and Q. I'll bet he loves watching the elevators go up and down all day.
But honestly, if the idea is for people to be working because it's awesome, then all the shit jobs had better be automated. Like that guy in Turbolift Control Picard tried to contact in Hide and Q. I'll bet he loves watching the elevators go up and down all day.
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