Torchwood: Children of Earth DAY FIVE FINALE grading thread

[Bob The Skutter]

^^Seemed what he did was heroic to me, he made the tough choice to save the world, even if it meant alienating the only people left he might feel any love for. He made the choice to sacrifice his own, which none of the weasely politicians would do, and he saved 32 million other kids in the process. And he felt bad about it afterwards. He may not have made a moral choice, but he made the right one, regardless of how tough it was.

 

[Silent_Bob]

^^Seemed what he did was heroic to me, he made the tough choice to save the world, even if it meant alienating the only people left he might feel any love for. He made the choice to sacrifice his own, which none of the weasely politicians would do, and he saved 32 million other kids in the process. And he felt bad about it afterwards. He may not have made a moral choice, but he made the right one, regardless of how tough it was.

We may have to agree to disagree on whether it was the right choice or not. As for being heroic, prior to this Jack was close to Doctor levels of sweeping in and saving the day, making everything alright again with a cheeky grin. This time he couldnt do that, he had to do something awful. And i prefer it this way i suppose.It stops Jack from reaching the Messiah-level heroism that The Doctor is mired in.

Isnt it nice to be debating the moral actions of a character and its impact on how we view them, instead of arguing over S&M Cyberwomen and Lesbian aliens.

 

[TheInsideMan]

After all that, isn't the Rift still open in Cardiff? So who will stop all the weevils etc etc from coming through and running riot in Cardiff?

PC Andy: Defending The Earth

"Outside the government, inside the police."

 

[TedShatner10]

I was also angry at Frobisher for taking the coward's way out of a solvable situation (like that other berk in The Mist).

Why? They threatened to take his kids by force to send them to a fate worse than death, they threatened to arrest him so he could do nothing, and the only action he could take was to tell the world and then his kids would still be taken. Better they be dead than face that. I could totally understand his way of thinking.

Sorry no sympathy, Frobisher still weazled his way out and showed what a spineless prick he always was by murdering his family to vindictively spite the 456. He could've easily blown the whole thing to the world media, the government aren't that competent, and then at least arranged a vain attempt to stave off his family being taken away (before shooting the PM and then himself in front of the press).

 

[The Badger]

Sorry no sympathy, Frobisher still weazled his way out and showed what a spineless prick he always was by murdering his family to vindictively spite the 456.

Is that why you think he did it?

You think that he would go outside, tell the press the truth (thus completely fucking over the nation he was trying to protect) then hold off the entire army with a single 9mm pistol? Then make his way back to Downing Street, through all the security, to kill the PM and himself. How many rounds do you think that gun holds?

Frobisher didn't kill his kids to 'spite the 456'. He killed them because he believed being hooked up to the 456 was a fate worse than death.

In his mind, he was protecting them. He killed his wife, and himself, to be with them.

Frobisher was, as Bridget said, a good man. A good man pushed beyond his limits, beyond hope, into despair.

There are even vague similarities between his actions and Jacks. Frobisher killed his kids to protect them from a worse fate. Jack sacrificed his grandson to protect other children from the same fate.

 

[Count Zero]

Sorry no sympathy, Frobisher still weazled his way out and showed what a spineless prick he always was by murdering his family to vindictively spite the 456. He could've easily blown the whole thing to the world media, the government aren't that competent, and then at least arranged a vain attempt to stave off his family being taken away (before shooting the PM and then himself in front of the press).

I kind of expected him to try to kill the PM when he told him his kids were going to be sacrificed. I probably would have tried. I also would have made this whole thing public in that situation, but really, what would have been gained? They believed that they had no choice than to hand over the kids to prevent everyone from dying. Making their plans public would have resulted in not getting enough kids because people wouldn't give up their kids for this, at least not in our culture, so everyone would have died.
I can understand Frobisher's decision, even though I don't agree with it. But from his point of view it made sense.

 

[TedShatner10]

Sorry no sympathy, Frobisher still weazled his way out and showed what a spineless prick he always was by murdering his family to vindictively spite the 456.

Is that why you think he did it?

You think that he would go outside, tell the press the truth (thus completely fucking over the nation he was trying to protect) then hold off the entire army with a single 9mm pistol? Then make his way back to Downing Street, through all the security, to kill the PM and himself. How many rounds do you think that gun holds?

For fuck's sake, if he tried to do the right thing in front of the world press, the evacuation process would be shown in a bad light if the camera's see police/soldiers storming the house of a high ranking dignitary to get at his two girls. Instead of skulking himself and his family away to kill them.

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

 

[Captain Shaw]

Sorry no sympathy, Frobisher still weazled his way out and showed what a spineless prick he always was by murdering his family to vindictively spite the 456.

Is that why you think he did it?

You think that he would go outside, tell the press the truth (thus completely fucking over the nation he was trying to protect) then hold off the entire army with a single 9mm pistol? Then make his way back to Downing Street, through all the security, to kill the PM and himself. How many rounds do you think that gun holds?

For fuck's sake, if he tried to do the right thing in front of the world press, the evacuation process would be shown in a bad light if the camera's see police/soldiers storming the house of a high ranking dignitary to get at his two girls. Instead of skulking himself and his family away to kill them.

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

I also don't get why torchwood did not press send.

 

[Starkers]

Sorry no sympathy, Frobisher still weazled his way out and showed what a spineless prick he always was by murdering his family to vindictively spite the 456.

Is that why you think he did it?

You think that he would go outside, tell the press the truth (thus completely fucking over the nation he was trying to protect) then hold off the entire army with a single 9mm pistol? Then make his way back to Downing Street, through all the security, to kill the PM and himself. How many rounds do you think that gun holds?

For fuck's sake, if he tried to do the right thing in front of the world press, the evacuation process would be shown in a bad light if the camera's see police/soldiers storming the house of a high ranking dignitary to get at his two girls. Instead of skulking himself and his family away to kill them.

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

Its very easy to be heroic and noble sitting in front of your PC isn't it?

Do you not think the cameras would have been shut down the moment he went off message? Sorry technical difficulties and his daughters go off to a fate far worse than death. Plus as The Badger says, he knew that if it did get out the entire country would descend into anarchy, and he was patriotic enough to not want that to happen.

It's worth remembering as well that for the last few days this man has been under intense pressure, not sleeping, has made questionable decisions. Do you even think he was thinking straight?

 

[Starkers]

Is that why you think he did it?

You think that he would go outside, tell the press the truth (thus completely fucking over the nation he was trying to protect) then hold off the entire army with a single 9mm pistol? Then make his way back to Downing Street, through all the security, to kill the PM and himself. How many rounds do you think that gun holds?

For fuck's sake, if he tried to do the right thing in front of the world press, the evacuation process would be shown in a bad light if the camera's see police/soldiers storming the house of a high ranking dignitary to get at his two girls. Instead of skulking himself and his family away to kill them.

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

I also don't get why torchwood did not press send.

What would be the point? Bring down the government? Would the next government do anything differently do you think? Assuming we didn't just end up in a military dictatorship. It always came back to the simple mathmatics of it, even for Torchwood. 10% of the world's children versus 100% of the worlds population.

 

[Australis]

As I said yesterday, best SF TV ever, hands down, I'll debate anyone on that.

The Doctor COULD NOT have appeared in this story, it simply wasn't that kind of story. So we, like the characters, have to live with the heartbreak. Like that movie that cmae out this year, can't think of its name, NO RESET BUTTON, much as we might want it, which isa good thing, if incredibly sad.

Comparisons to Edge of Darkness seems quite reasonable.

I hope for a 4th series, but if we do get it, there will have to be some kind of redemption for Jack. Not a reset, but a place where he can stand and face into the wind, and know with certainty that the choice he made was the only one he could make. We couldn't have a series that was so dark every time. Like life, there has to be day after the night. Maybe this si something the Doctor has topp do after all, help Jack through this. The Xmas eps are supposed to be dark, I hear.

More thoughts after I calm down and reflect a bit.

ETA: hmm, PM of colour... I wonder if that was by design?

But Frobisher should have shot the PM first. He was a thorough shit to a faithful servant, demanding he give up his kids like that.

 

[The Badger]

For fuck's sake, if he tried to do the right thing in front of the world press, the evacuation process would be shown in a bad light if the camera's see police/soldiers storming the house of a high ranking dignitary to get at his two girls. Instead of skulking himself and his family away to kill them.

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

So instead of killing his family to 'vindictively spite' the 456, you think he should have gone public, which as Starkers points out, wouldn't really affect the 456 but would bring down his own government.

No help to anyone, but a lot of hurt to his own people. That sounds like vindictive spite to me.

And does anyone truly think that anyone, even a senior civil servant, could take a gun into the PM's office without being searched? How was he supposed to kill the PM? And once the orders had been given, what would that have achieved?

 

[Count Zero]

But Frobisher should have shot the PM first. He was a thorough shit to a faithful servant, demanding he give up his kids like that.

Especially since he only did it to cover his own arse.

For fuck's sake, if he tried to do the right thing in front of the world press, the evacuation process would be shown in a bad light if the camera's see police/soldiers storming the house of a high ranking dignitary to get at his two girls. Instead of skulking himself and his family away to kill them.

It was a hopeless situation, but why be a quitter, and a sore one at that?

So instead of killing his family to 'vindictively spite' the 456, you think he should have gone public, which as Starkers points out, wouldn't really affect the 456 but would bring down his own government.

No help to anyone, but a lot of hurt to his own people. That sounds like vindictive spite to me.

I can kind of see where TedShatner10 is coming from. I, too, think that with a decision like that everyone should have a choice instead of having politicians of dubious morals (as in this case) decide for them.

The UK government was wrong in keeping it all a secret and even trying to cover it with murder. They should have made their previous encounter with the 456 known to their allies at least. That way, there would have been a bigger possibility to come up with counter-measures against the 456. After all, Jack was able to figure it out on his own in the end, so bringing Torchwood into the loop from the beginning would have been a good idea.

 

[Captain Shaw]

The governments should have stood up to them because the children are basically heroin to the 456 so even if they had got the 10% like all drug uses they would need a bigger and bigger fix so they would keep coming back for more.
And what happened to the ship unit had?

 

[Australis]

Taken out in the events at the end of Dr Who s4

 

[skep155]

I agree...he could have taken the super heroic way out of sacrificing his kids to save millions more--but that was Jack's course to take. They could have run I suppose, but I imagine the bodyguards there to protect his family from Jack would have stopped that. Frobisher was probably the best character in this, and as good as most of the performances were (and Barrowman surprised me) Capaldi sure as hell better win some kind of award. It's funny, obviously people have become so used to heroic/unrealistic telly that they can't comprehend something grounded in reality. Frobisher was a good man trapped within something bigger. If people think there weren't good people working in the concentration camps, that all the Nazis were evil because that makes it easier, then they're mistaken. The thing I liked most of all about this series is that it's shown us what we probably would do, as a species, in this situation. I don't have kids, but in all honesty how many parents would sacrifice their own children to save someone elses?

I tell you now, as someone who does have two kids, that there would be no way in hell i'd sacrifice them to save anyone. The entire human race could be threatened and i would still not do it.

I liked the finale but i have to agree that i was angry at Jack for sacrificing his grandchild. He didn't even know for sure that the plan would work, it could have done anything to the 456 , made them angrier or hurt them but not crippled them, or just scared them away for a while etc...

I disagree with the person who said it made Jack seem more human, i think it made him seem slightly less Human and more like an anti-hero. Somebody who did something cold but necessary. I think most parents would rather see the world go up in flames than sacrifice their own child/grandchild.

 

[Captain Shaw]

I agree...he could have taken the super heroic way out of sacrificing his kids to save millions more--but that was Jack's course to take. They could have run I suppose, but I imagine the bodyguards there to protect his family from Jack would have stopped that. Frobisher was probably the best character in this, and as good as most of the performances were (and Barrowman surprised me) Capaldi sure as hell better win some kind of award. It's funny, obviously people have become so used to heroic/unrealistic telly that they can't comprehend something grounded in reality. Frobisher was a good man trapped within something bigger. If people think there weren't good people working in the concentration camps, that all the Nazis were evil because that makes it easier, then they're mistaken. The thing I liked most of all about this series is that it's shown us what we probably would do, as a species, in this situation. I don't have kids, but in all honesty how many parents would sacrifice their own children to save someone elses?

I tell you now, as someone who does have two kids, that there would be no way in hell i'd sacrifice them to save anyone. The entire human race could be threatened and i would still not do it.

I liked the finale but i have to agree that i was angry at Jack for sacrificing his grandchild. He didn't even know for sure that the plan would work, it could have done anything to the 456 , made them angrier or hurt them but not crippled them, or just scared them away for a while etc...

I disagree with the person who said it made Jack seem more human, i think it made him seem less Human and more like an anti-hero. Somebody who did something cold but necessary. I think most parents would rather see the world go up in flames than sacrifice their own child/grandchild.

I was angry at Jack for what he did but i know there are people out there who sell there kids to pedofiles so i could see people sacrificing there kids for the greater good.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I agree...he could have taken the super heroic way out of sacrificing his kids to save millions more--but that was Jack's course to take. They could have run I suppose, but I imagine the bodyguards there to protect his family from Jack would have stopped that. Frobisher was probably the best character in this, and as good as most of the performances were (and Barrowman surprised me) Capaldi sure as hell better win some kind of award. It's funny, obviously people have become so used to heroic/unrealistic telly that they can't comprehend something grounded in reality. Frobisher was a good man trapped within something bigger. If people think there weren't good people working in the concentration camps, that all the Nazis were evil because that makes it easier, then they're mistaken. The thing I liked most of all about this series is that it's shown us what we probably would do, as a species, in this situation. I don't have kids, but in all honesty how many parents would sacrifice their own children to save someone elses?

I tell you now, as someone who does have two kids, that there would be no way in hell i'd sacrifice them to save anyone. The entire human race could be threatened and i would still not do it.

I liked the finale but i have to agree that i was angry at Jack for sacrificing his grandchild. He didn't even know for sure that the plan would work, it could have done anything to the 456 , made them angrier or hurt them but not crippled them, or just scared them away for a while etc...

I disagree with the person who said it made Jack seem more human, i think it made him seem slightly less Human and more like an anti-hero. Somebody who did something cold but necessary. I think most parents would rather see the world go up in flames than sacrifice their own child/grandchild.

And if he hadn't made that choice he did know for sure what would happen. He either took action and hoped, or did nothing, and knew what would happen.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I tell you now, as someone who does have two kids, that there would be no way in hell i'd sacrifice them to save anyone. The entire human race could be threatened and i would still not do it.

I liked the finale but i have to agree that i was angry at Jack for sacrificing his grandchild. He didn't even know for sure that the plan would work, it could have done anything to the 456 , made them angrier or hurt them but not crippled them, or just scared them away for a while etc...

I disagree with the person who said it made Jack seem more human, i think it made him seem less Human and more like an anti-hero. Somebody who did something cold but necessary. I think most parents would rather see the world go up in flames than sacrifice their own child/grandchild.

I was angry at Jack for what he did but i know there are people out there who sell there kids to pedofiles so i could see people sacrificing there kids for the greater good.

Also, he wasn't sacrificing his son, he was sacrificing his grandson, who he barely knew, from his daughter he hardly saw, who thought he was a bastard to begin with too.

 

[vampgrrl]

Plus had they sacrificed 10% of the kids in the world, it would have been the end of civilization everywhere. There is no going back to anything normal after that...and possibly the end of the world.

Had he not stopped the 456 with his grandson, there would have been MUCH more suffering...the world would have burned.