Tom Riker VS Miles O'Brien

[DevilEyes]

Well, maybe Tom didn't mean to be that bitter. O'Brien was, after all, a transporter chief, and a transporter problem was responsible for Tom's existence in the first place (even if it wasn't O'Brien himself). Maybe Tom just hates transporter chiefs and lashed out in anger?

No, actually Tom's parents are responsible for his existence. The transporter accident is only responsible for him having spent 7 years alone on the planet, coming back to see that there's another version of himself with a higher rank and a far more eventful last 7 years, and adopting the nickname "Tom" instead of "Will" to distinguish himself from the other version of himself.

But without the transporter problem, Tom would never exist. There would only have been Will. Mr. and Mrs. Riker are not responsible for what happened to Tom, because they only had one son - Will. Tom's entire existence is directly attributed to the transporter mishap - if that had not occurred, there would be no duplication of Will, and therefore, no Tom.

You could as well say that Will would have never existed, there would only have been Tom. Only he wouldn't have been using the nickname Tom. It makes as much sense as the other way round.

Tom existed from the moment when he was born, as William T. Riker. So did Will. They just used to be the same person, until the transporter accident. Beverly explained it in the episode itself, so I don't know why people get confused about it: they are both the real William T. Riker, only with vastly different experiences during the last 7 years. Viewers seem to react to Will as the "real" one, and Tom as someone who didn't exist before the transporter accident, but that's simply not true.

Even though adopting the nickname "Tom" was a way of distinguishing himself from the other Riker, one may also say that Tom, in a way, accepted an inferior position by choosing a new nickname for himself, as if he wasn't the same William T. Riker who had finished the Starfleet Academy, served on The Pegasus and had a relationship with Deanna.

 

[OmahaStar]

No, actually Tom's parents are responsible for his existence. The transporter accident is only responsible for him having spent 7 years alone on the planet, coming back to see that there's another version of himself with a higher rank and a far more eventful last 7 years, and adopting the nickname "Tom" instead of "Will" to distinguish himself from the other version of himself.

But without the transporter problem, Tom would never exist. There would only have been Will. Mr. and Mrs. Riker are not responsible for what happened to Tom, because they only had one son - Will. Tom's entire existence is directly attributed to the transporter mishap - if that had not occurred, there would be no duplication of Will, and therefore, no Tom.

You could as well say that Will would have never existed, there would only have been Tom. Only he wouldn't have been using the nickname Tom. It makes as much sense as the other way round.

Tom existed from the moment when he was born, as William T. Riker. So did Will. They just used to be the same person, until the transporter accident. Beverly explained it in the episode itself, so I don't know why people get confused about it: they are both the real William T. Riker, only with vastly different experiences during the last 7 years. Viewers seem to react to Will as the "real" one, and Tom as someone who didn't exist before the transporter accident, but that's simply not true.

Even though adopting the nickname "Tom" was a way of distinguishing himself from the other Riker, one may also say that Tom, in a way, accepted an inferior position by choosing a new nickname for himself, as if he wasn't the same William T. Riker who had finished the Starfleet Academy, served on The Pegasus and had a relationship with Deanna.

I also think it's sad they wimped out at the last minute in the TNG episode. Originally, they were going to kill off Commander Riker, and Lt. Riker would have joined the crew. Same actor, same contract. Unfortunately, they wimped out and we never got it. Man, that would have been brilliant, but we can't change things. Ugh.

 

[Danoz]

Obviously, it was intended to show that there was something up with this "Riker", and to bring up a few question marks. However, it just didn't work well for the story telling. I think it would have been better if Tom couldn't answer some questions or wasn't familiar with O'Brien at all, then tried to con his way out of it to cover up. Would have been more subtle, and less confusing.

The scene didn't really make sense, actually, now that I think about it it's always bothered me and I've just shrugged it off. He knew O'Brien's name and they were just colleagues (for all he knew)-- so there's no reason why a smile, handshake and pat on the shoulder wouldn't have sufficed to "get rid" of O'Brien. Having said that, the situation required his immediate attention and so he probably just "winged it" and went with a gut reaction that would get him in the defiant as quickly as possible and alone with Kira.

 

[Baconnaise]

I have to agree it seems by the time you see him steal the defiant he just did it to nip some possible threat before it begins.

The whole two riker thing was a horrible tng episode to begin with as it just opens a big can of worms.

I think it's a great episode - one of my favorites on TNG - because it opens so many interesting questions about personal identity.

It doesn't really focus enough on how different they were imo. The whole hey deanna I still love you babe scenes were just flat. We were supposed to get that tension between riker and troi many times about how they cared for each other but the writing and acting in regards to it were just not passionate enough to make it interesting or meaningful.

What it did do is open a can of worms where we could replicate people via transporters. This is a huge hole in the series since we can make copies of whoever we want.

 

[Delta1]

This is a great question, someone should add it to the FAQ.

 

[Myasishchev]

I think he should have looked blank for a moment, then asked him if he was "one of the little people."

 

[Too Much Fun]

I also think it's sad they wimped out at the last minute in the TNG episode. Originally, they were going to kill off Commander Riker, and Lt. Riker would have joined the crew. Same actor, same contract. Unfortunately, they wimped out and we never got it. Man, that would have been brilliant, but we can't change things. Ugh.

The fact that DS9 basically did do this in that episode where O'Brien keeps jumping forward into the near future is a good example of how much more daring and able to take risks DS9 was compared to TNG. By the way, Myasishchev, I love your Q reference.

 

[DevilEyes]

I also think it's sad they wimped out at the last minute in the TNG episode. Originally, they were going to kill off Commander Riker, and Lt. Riker would have joined the crew. Same actor, same contract. Unfortunately, they wimped out and we never got it. Man, that would have been brilliant, but we can't change things. Ugh.

The fact that DS9 basically did do this in that episode where O'Brien keeps jumping forward into the near future is a good example of how much more daring and able to take risks DS9 was compared to TNG. By the way, Myasishchev, I love your Q reference.

Yeah, and look how it changed the character of Miles O'Brien completely...






Uhhhm....

 

[Admiral Shran]

I've never understood the confusion reguarding this scene. When I first saw it I thought, "What the hell is Riker's problem with O'Brien." But as soon as I realized it was Tom Riker, not Will Riker, I immediately understood that he was simply trying to get rid of O'Brien as soon as humanly possibly. He didn't want his cover to be blown when he was that close to getting what he was after.

Maybe I'm just not seeing something, but I've never seen what's so confusing.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I also think it's sad they wimped out at the last minute in the TNG episode. Originally, they were going to kill off Commander Riker, and Lt. Riker would have joined the crew. Same actor, same contract. Unfortunately, they wimped out and we never got it. Man, that would have been brilliant, but we can't change things. Ugh.

The fact that DS9 basically did do this in that episode where O'Brien keeps jumping forward into the near future is a good example of how much more daring and able to take risks DS9 was compared to TNG. By the way, Myasishchev, I love your Q reference.

Yeah, and look how it changed the character of Miles O'Brien completely...






Uhhhm....

Yeah, it didn't end up amounting to anything in the long run, but my point was that it was a gutsy, unpredictable move that TNG wouldn't have done with its generally more 'play it safe' approach. DS9 was willing to go to much darker places.

 

[DonIago]

To be fair, VOY, which I think is generally considered less risky than DS9, did the same thing with Harry Kim.

While I was entertained by the "replacement" of characters with alternate-yet-equal versions of them, I wouldn't call it "risky" or "gutsy".

 

[DevilEyes]

To be fair, VOY, which I think is generally considered less risky than DS9, did the same thing with Harry Kim.

While I was entertained by the "replacement" of characters with alternate-yet-equal versions of them, I wouldn't call it "risky" or "gutsy".

However, if Tom Riker had replaced Will Riker, it would have made quite a change, because those two were quite different after their completely different experiences of the previous 7 years. Instead of the XO who had grown complacent and cautious - satisfied to be second fiddle on the Enterprise instead of taking his own command - and involved in an endless 'will they won't they' friendship with Deanna that wasn't going anywhere, while having many flings along the way, we'd have gotten a lower-ranked, impulsive, reckless, ambitious Riker, still very much in love with Deanna, and hungry for life and action and achievement, after having spent the last 7 years all alone on a desolate planet. That's why it would have been an actually a risky, but very interesting move.

 

[DonIago]

^Oh, no argument here that the Riker swap would have been a bit of a risk, certainly moreso than the O'Brien or Kim versions.

 

[CoveTom]

I never liked the Riker/O'Brien scene in what I otherwise consider to be a superb episode. It just seems "off" to me. I know Riker is a ranking officer, but I just can't imagine with something like that coming completely out of the blue, that O'Brien wouldn't have at least questioned it, and made Tom Riker get more forceful and order him off the ship or something. I mean, Will Riker and O'Brien weren't just co-workers. They were at least somewhat friends. We see them in Ten Forward sharing a drink together, we see them playing poker together, etc. If they'd just added an extra two lines. Something like O'Brien, very confused, going "Sir?" And Riker forcefully saying "Dismissed." That would have been enough for me.

But personally, I think it would have been better if they'd just omitted that little exchange entirely. No good plot reason that O'Brien needs to be on the Defiant. And it's only 30 seconds later that Tom shoots Kira with a phaser, so it's not like that scene provided 20 minutes of suspense for us to question what was wrong with Will. Just have Tom and Kira board the ship, have their little exchange, and be done with it.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I never liked the Riker/O'Brien scene in what I otherwise consider to be a superb episode. It just seems "off" to me. I know Riker is a ranking officer, but I just can't imagine with something like that coming completely out of the blue, that O'Brien wouldn't have at least questioned it, and made Tom Riker get more forceful and order him off the ship or something. I mean, Will Riker and O'Brien weren't just co-workers. They were at least somewhat friends. We see them in Ten Forward sharing a drink together, we see them playing poker together, etc. If they'd just added an extra two lines. Something like O'Brien, very confused, going "Sir?" And Riker forcefully saying "Dismissed." That would have been enough for me.

But personally, I think it would have been better if they'd just omitted that little exchange entirely. No good plot reason that O'Brien needs to be on the Defiant. And it's only 30 seconds later that Tom shoots Kira with a phaser, so it's not like that scene provided 20 minutes of suspense for us to question what was wrong with Will. Just have Tom and Kira board the ship, have their little exchange, and be done with it.

And lets not forget, Miles knew of Tom Riker. I'm not saying he should have instantly known, but it makes look Obrien look a bit daf.

Rob

 

[Tiberius]

...or that it was Tom Riker trying to get by as wil riker.

Rob

I'm sure you thought of this before they revealed it was Tom...

 

[Trek Survivor]

Did he?? O'Brien wasn't on the Enterprise when they discovered Thomas Riker. You're assuming that O'Brien heard off-camera. Not an unreasonable assumption, but STILL an assumption.

 

[DonIago]

Frankly, even if I knew Bob had an identical twin Bill, if Bob yelled at me out of the blue my first thought wouldn't be, "Why's Bill impersonating Bob?" but rather "WTF BOB???!!!???" And if we were in a military('ish) organization and on-duty and he was my superior officer I sure as hell wouldn't call him out at the time.

Now granted, a few minutes later the first possibility would probably occur to me, but by then Bill's already made off with the Defiant. Oops.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

^^
How about this.

You live on a station where people get taken over by evil entities once a week. You served on a ship where you yourself were taken over by an evil entity. It happens. You're aware of this.

A good friend shows up, yells at you about something that never happened, and you just say "You're right" and move on? Or think "Hey, something's not right, me and Will left on great terms, he's lying, I'm warning someone NOW." At least, if you're as experienced as O'Brien, you'd think you would. Step off the Defiant, hit your badge (it's really convenient) and say "Sisko, there's something up with Commander Riker, he's on the Defiant..."

Easiest solution, as pretty much stated before, would be Tom saying "O'brien, great to see you, let's catch up at Quark's tonight!" Then move on. Takes the same amount of time. And it isn't stupid.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Thanks for the answers.
I figured I was getting it right, but you'd think they might have had a scene later where Miles says someting to the effect that he though Riker was acting strangely.

He does, kinda.
When he walks out of the Defiant he has this look like, "now WTF was THAT all about?"

Maybe O'Brien was going to ask Tom that question, but didn't want to cause a scene in front of Major Kira. That's a kind of question that would be better asked when no one else is around.