TNG Rewatch: 5x23 - "I, Borg"

[Timo]

It's a bit risque to apply the concept of "war crimes" or "rules of war" to Star Trek. Such things have been very circumstances-dependent in Earth history, and are in constant flux even today; Trek presents an all-new set of challenges, including various types of truly inhuman opponents, and this almost inevitably would result in rewriting of rules.

Let's also remember that the rules, laws and agreements that govern war (or try to) exist principally to allow wars to be fought. They facilitate conflict, making it easier to kill, enslave, draft, rob, deport and coerce. They do so by striking a balance between the conflicting needs of the side that wants to have war and the side that doesn't want war to be had on him - which typically are the same side, explaining why it's so easy to come to an agreement.

Yet while humans typically have the balance down pat, for any given period of history, enter nonhumans (or fanatics) and everything changes... Should Starfleet, say, believe in humane treatment of war prisoners when the Klingon philosophy establishes that such treatment is the worst sort of torture and the grossest war-perpetuating insult imaginable?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

What I like about this episode is that Guinan who had the most to be resentful about and who's loathing of the borg was superior to anyone else's on the ship... well, maybe with the exception of worf... Ended up being the most fervent advocate of the little bugger, IE Hugh.

 

[RAMA]

One of Trek's great philosophical episodes. You don't have to agree with it to be good either.

So to get to the key issue...the malicious program! We assume it means certain death for the Borg IF it works. I doubt it would have. Apparently Hugh himself caused SOME havoc according to Descent, but ultimately that is localized too. My gut tells me Picard made the right choice in not using it anyway. I don't think most people wanted to wipe out Germany 100% after the war (though some surely did). Genocide is a very tough choice to make.

I suggested at the time it came out, that if ST wanted to move on from the Borg, they could have created a different outcome of collective AI that WAS NOT like the Borg, one where it heightened virtues and eliminated petty jealousies and parochial thinking in favor of enlightenement. They would use evolution's greatest strength...cooperation to defeat or hold off the Borg. Starfleet moves on.

RAMA

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

One of Trek's great philosophical episodes. You don't have to agree with it to be good either.

So to get to the key issue...the malicious program! We assume it means certain death for the Borg IF it works. I doubt it would have. Apparently Hugh himself caused SOME havoc according to Descent, but ultimately that is localized too. My gut tells me Picard made the right choice in not using it anyway. I don't think most people wanted to wipe out Germany 100% after the war (though some surely did). Genocide is a very tough choice to make.

I suggested at the time it came out, that if ST wanted to move on from the Borg, they could have created a different outcome of collective AI that WAS NOT like the Borg, one where it heightened virtues and eliminated petty jealousies and parochial thinking in favor of enlightenement. They would use evolution's greatest strength...cooperation to defeat or hold off the Borg. Starfleet moves on.

RAMA

I think the borg were potential much better villains than they later turned out to be.

 

[Memory Alpha]

This is a story that aims to humanize the intractable foe and as such as is pretty predictable and average. Returning Hugh to the collective, though, is an egregious misstep, and I'm surprised Picard and Crusher did not face at least a hearing over it. Three-of-Five clearly should have been turned over to Starfleet for obvious reasons, but also to allow his individuality to develop or return.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

This is a story that aims to humanize the intractable foe and as such as is pretty predictable and average. Returning Hugh to the collective, though, is an egregious misstep, and I'm surprised Picard and Crusher did not face at least a hearing over it. Three-of-Five clearly should have been turned over to Starfleet for obvious reasons, but also to allow his individuality to develop or return.

I think there was some concern that the borg would've attacked had they not retrieved their drone.

 

[Trekker4747]

This is a story that aims to humanize the intractable foe and as such as is pretty predictable and average. Returning Hugh to the collective, though, is an egregious misstep, and I'm surprised Picard and Crusher did not face at least a hearing over it. Three-of-Five clearly should have been turned over to Starfleet for obvious reasons, but also to allow his individuality to develop or return.

The notion seemed to be that Hugh's nanodevices made him trackable and they couldn't disable the devices without harming him, they could only put him in a shielded area to block the signals. So there was pretty much no way they could take Hugh anywhere without Hugh eventually being tracked down to Starfleet.

And even if the -D left with Hugh in containment the Borg were already enroute becuase they knew about the crashed scout ship. So the Borg would track warp signatures or whatever to find their missing drone.

Now, what is hard to accept is that The Borg would expend resources and time to track down a crashed ship and a handful of missing drones. You'd think they'd just shrug them off and go about their business.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

This is a story that aims to humanize the intractable foe and as such as is pretty predictable and average. Returning Hugh to the collective, though, is an egregious misstep, and I'm surprised Picard and Crusher did not face at least a hearing over it. Three-of-Five clearly should have been turned over to Starfleet for obvious reasons, but also to allow his individuality to develop or return.

The notion seemed to be that Hugh's nanodevices made him trackable and they couldn't disable the devices without harming him, they could only put him in a shielded area to block the signals. So there was pretty much no way they could take Hugh anywhere without Hugh eventually being tracked down to Starfleet.

And even if the -D left with Hugh in containment the Borg were already enroute becuase they knew about the crashed scout ship. So the Borg would track warp signatures or whatever to find their missing drone.

Now, what is hard to accept is that The Borg would expend resources and time to track down a crashed ship and a handful of missing drones. You'd think they'd just shrug them off and go about their business.

I think it's even more likely that they would remotely trigger the self destruct procedure as the loss of a few drones means nothing to them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Moreover, the show certainly did not carry the disinformation that is often, if not usually, pejoratively associated with propaganda

"The Drumhead" ignored that before and after there had been active and effective Romulan sabotage attempts, it had Picard thinking that because one plot was only apparent most must be.

Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said in the passage of mine that you quoted.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Moreover, the show certainly did not carry the disinformation that is often, if not usually, pejoratively associated with propaganda

"The Drumhead" ignored that before and after there had been active and effective Romulan sabotage attempts, it had Picard thinking that because one plot was only apparent most must be.

Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said in the passage of mine that you quoted.

I for one, find it even confusing.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think it's even more likely that they would remotely trigger the self destruct procedure as the loss of a few drones means nothing to them.

Yeah, pretty much. But there's likely a "reason" why they don't use the self-destruct sequence or maybe it's tied to the removal of the devices on the Borg's body. I mean we could say the same about Hugh later on with the other "rogue" Borg. Why abandon them on another planet? Why not just dematerialize them and say the hell with it?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I think it's even more likely that they would remotely trigger the self destruct procedure as the loss of a few drones means nothing to them.

Yeah, pretty much. But there's likely a "reason" why they don't use the self-destruct sequence or maybe it's tied to the removal of the devices on the Borg's body. I mean we could say the same about Hugh later on with the other "rogue" Borg. Why abandon them on another planet? Why not just dematerialize them and say the hell with it?

Yes, that's also true.

 

[Mojochi]

"Kill it now! And make it look like an accident!"


I know that's not exactly what worf said but it's funnier this way.

I actually thought that was clearly the best option presented in the whole episode, or just turn around & walk away. imho, the whole ordeal is Crusher's fault for once again putting her Hippocratic oath above her Starfleet oath

I'd have beamed her back unwillingly. Let her transfer if she has a problem, but that's just me

Instead of trying to convince an audience that one of the greatest threats to the galaxy can be undone by a freaking image, we could have spent time with something that actually had character to it.

Unlike Data hacking Locutus & telling them all to go to sleep, which destroys a cube? The overall premise behind how they developed the Borg was that ultimately the simplest thing is the one that can be the most useful. The David & Goliath parable

I don't have any problems with how they play this episode out, except no one ever calls Crusher to the mat for endangering e v e r y o n e

Other than that, the acting is good, the drama is solid, the sci-fi stretches a bit on the original plan, but it's not entirely unbelievable to me, & there was no plan to use Hugh's individuality as a weapon, just an after thought that it might have an effect

It's not among their best episodes, but it holds up in my book

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

"Kill it now! And make it look like an accident!"


I know that's not exactly what worf said but it's funnier this way.

I actually thought that was clearly the best option presented in the whole episode, or just turn around & walk away. imho, the whole ordeal is Crusher's fault for once again putting her Hippocratic oath above her Starfleet oath

I'd have beamed her back unwillingly. Let her transfer if she has a problem, but that's just me

Instead of trying to convince an audience that one of the greatest threats to the galaxy can be undone by a freaking image, we could have spent time with something that actually had character to it.

Unlike Data hacking Locutus & telling them all to go to sleep, which destroys a cube? The overall premise behind how they developed the Borg was that ultimately the simplest thing is the one that can be the most useful. The David & Goliath parable

I don't have any problems with how they play this episode out, except no one ever calls Crusher to the mat for endangering e v e r y o n e

Other than that, the acting is good, the drama is solid, the sci-fi stretches a bit on the original plan, but it's not entirely unbelievable to me, & there was no plan to use Hugh's individuality as a weapon, just an after thought that it might have an effect

It's not among their best episodes, but it holds up in my book

The worst part is that it wasn't the first time that Crusher got them in a similar situation because she couldn't leave well enough alone.


Take The Perfect Mate episode, it is her that incited Picard to get closer and eventually hooked up on a woman that he couldn't have. Thank you very much!

Or that episode with a terrorist that had a Napoleon complex.

 

[Trekker4747]

"Kill it now! And make it look like an accident!"


I know that's not exactly what worf said but it's funnier this way.

I actually thought that was clearly the best option presented in the whole episode, or just turn around & walk away. imho, the whole ordeal is Crusher's fault for once again putting her Hippocratic oath above her Starfleet oath

I'd have beamed her back unwillingly. Let her transfer if she has a problem, but that's just me

Instead of trying to convince an audience that one of the greatest threats to the galaxy can be undone by a freaking image, we could have spent time with something that actually had character to it.

Unlike Data hacking Locutus & telling them all to go to sleep, which destroys a cube? The overall premise behind how they developed the Borg was that ultimately the simplest thing is the one that can be the most useful. The David & Goliath parable

I don't have any problems with how they play this episode out, except no one ever calls Crusher to the mat for endangering e v e r y o n e

Other than that, the acting is good, the drama is solid, the sci-fi stretches a bit on the original plan, but it's not entirely unbelievable to me, & there was no plan to use Hugh's individuality as a weapon, just an after thought that it might have an effect

It's not among their best episodes, but it holds up in my book

The worst part is that it wasn't the first time that Crusher got them in a similar situation because she couldn't leave well enough alone.


Take The Perfect Mate episode, it is her that incited Picard to get closer and eventually hooked up on a woman that he couldn't have. Thank you very much!

Or that episode with a terrorist that had a Napoleon complex.

Yeah, that one sprung to mind too. Granted she was there doing her duty but I wonder if doing her duty to "civilians" of an alien, non-Federation, planet overrules her duty to keep herself and her shipmates out of harm's way? Seems like there were quite a few times where her behavior and actions puts her life and the lives of her shipmates at risk.

This same woman also seemed pretty okay with boarding a Borg ship in "Best of Both Worlds" and firing at Borg drones.

 

[Mojochi]

The worst part is that it wasn't the first time that Crusher got them in a similar situation because she couldn't leave well enough alone.


Take The Perfect Mate episode, it is her that incited Picard to get closer and eventually hooked up on a woman that he couldn't have. Thank you very much!

Or that episode with a terrorist that had a Napoleon complex.

Oh... I said "Again" for a reason

I don't hold The Perfect Mate thing against her too much, because it's really just personal & conversational. She's had plenty of moments where she pushes her pious platitudes. In fact, during Homeward her bleeding heart is actually the only sensible voice of reason among the entire crew, in an otherwise ridiculous adherence to the Prime Directive

I only really take issue when she acts outside her authority, & even then there's exceptions, like Suspicions. She endangers herself for something she believes in. Well, who among them hasn't done that?

However, in The High Ground, she endangers an away team & renders aid to one side of a conflict, which can be taken as support for a faction... & was. Then, in I Borg, she not only endangers an away team, but the whole ship & perhaps the entire Federation

I don't think I've ever had a TNG dialog line irritate me more than Riker saying this in The High Ground about transporting the away team out of the blast zone

I don't want to be in the transporter room to greet her

F### her. End of story. That is way more latitude than any doctor put in a chain of command should ever have

Day 1, someone looks you in the face & says "Some days you don't get to be Doctor Crusher. You have to be Officer Crusher". Don't like it? Go back to Copernicus City & run some pap smears.

 

[suarezguy]

Moreover, the show certainly did not carry the disinformation that is often, if not usually, pejoratively associated with propaganda

"The Drumhead" ignored that before and after there had been active and effective Romulan sabotage attempts, it had Picard thinking that because one plot was only apparent most must be.

Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said in the passage of mine that you quoted.

You claimed "I Borg" didn't and couldn't have a feature of propaganda, disinformation, and I argued that another episode that had been accused of feeling like propaganda did have it, or at least something close to it, because it ignored events that occurred in other episodes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

"The Drumhead" ignored that before and after there had been active and effective Romulan sabotage attempts, it had Picard thinking that because one plot was only apparent most must be.

Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said in the passage of mine that you quoted.

You claimed "I Borg" didn't and couldn't have a feature of propaganda, disinformation, and I argued that another episode that had been accused of feeling like propaganda did have it, or at least something close to it, because it ignored events that occurred in other episodes.

A work of fiction, especially one acknowledged as such by its creators, by definition cannot spread disinformation. A conflict in continuity with a previous episode is something else entirely.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said in the passage of mine that you quoted.

You claimed "I Borg" didn't and couldn't have a feature of propaganda, disinformation, and I argued that another episode that had been accused of feeling like propaganda did have it, or at least something close to it, because it ignored events that occurred in other episodes.

A work of fiction, especially one acknowledged as such by its creators, by definition cannot spread disinformation. A conflict in continuity with a previous episode is something else entirely.

Definitely, propaganda is about real politics and influencing people about real life events; not a work of fiction.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

OK, that really is my last word on anything in this sidebar regarding disinformation, etc. I've clarified everything I'd already said adequately enough, I think.