TNG Rewatch: 5x23 - "I, Borg"

[horatio83]

How do the Borg struggle with individuality and its consequences when they've spent centuries assimilating individuals? This episode misunderstands what made the Borg so interesting. It's mostly pretty boring but has some good performances from Stewart, Goldberg, and Del Arco.

It's an interesting question. Perhaps Hugh has not been assimilated for such a long time yet or you could say that being de-assimilated is like being born (again) and what is being born if not being individualized. Hugh did after all, unlike 7/9, not seem to remember a past life but started again from scratch.

In my opinion "I, Borg" is the climax of the Borg arch (everything that came afterwards is either crap, body horror or a bad variation of something that has already been told) and by far the best episode. Sure, it is basically just liberal propaganda, the rights of the individual and so on and while what fascinates me about Trek is how it sketches a society in which individual freedom and collective harmony are in synch I nonetheless think that "I, Borg" is TNG at its best. TNG at its best, i.e. Measure of a Man, Drumhead and so on is after all nothing but a giant liberal (lest somebody misunderstands me, not liberal as in 'voting Democrat' but liberal as in 'liberal Western societies') pamphlet.

 

[Trekker4747]

All the sweeter, then, to find out in "Descent" that it in fact did!

But it didn't work, not entirely at least. The infected drones were simply cut loose so they wouldn't infect the entire collective. It's probably reasonable to assume their malicious program idea would have done the same thing.

Sure, it is basically just liberal propaganda...

Seriously?

 

[horatio83]

Seriously?

Are you seriously questioning that episodes like Measure of a Man, Drumhead and I, Borg are about liberal rights? As I said I use liberal here in the 'liberal Western societies' and not in the 'liberal vs. conservative' sense.

Seeing these episodes again is slightly cringeworthy precisely because at their core there is always the same pattern, somebody is dismissing individual rights and Picard fights for the rights of Data, Tarsis or Hugh. Doesn't mean that they are not among the best stories that TNG has to offer though.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

"I, Borg" is not propaganda, of any kind. "The Measure Of A Man" is also not any kind of propaganda, and neither is "The Drumhead."

 

[BillJ]

"I, Borg" is not propaganda, of any kind. "The Measure Of A Man" is also not any kind of propaganda, and neither is "The Drumhead."

I guess liberal rights are somehow different than human rights?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

"I, Borg" is not propaganda, of any kind. "The Measure Of A Man" is also not any kind of propaganda, and neither is "The Drumhead."

I guess liberal rights are somehow different than human rights?

I dunno what sparked the idea that some or all of these were "liberal propaganda."

 

[Trekker4747]

"I, Borg" is not propaganda, of any kind. "The Measure Of A Man" is also not any kind of propaganda, and neither is "The Drumhead."

I guess liberal rights are somehow different than human rights?

I dunno what sparked the idea that some or all of these were "liberal propaganda."

Yeah, clearly treating people like individuals, saying they have rights that should be respected and not summarily assuming they're guilty of a crime, not worthy of respect or life or should be used as a tool to annihilate their entire race is such a liberal way of thinking. Sickening.

Pfft. Rights. Fair trials. Whatevs.

 

[horatio83]

"I, Borg" is not propaganda, of any kind. "The Measure Of A Man" is also not any kind of propaganda, and neither is "The Drumhead."

Gee, if you don't like the term propaganda then call it preachy or whatever. Just because I have issues with the style of a message does not mean that I am not totally behind the content of that very message.
As I already said twice, I like these episodes and rate them amongst the best of TNG which is my favourite series ... but it is undeniable that they suffer from being formulaic, Picard fights for individual rights against the evil admiral.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

"I, Borg" is not propaganda, of any kind. "The Measure Of A Man" is also not any kind of propaganda, and neither is "The Drumhead."

Gee, if you don't like the term propaganda because for you the term has bad connotations (for me it does not automatically have bad connotations) then call it preachy or whatever.

As I said, I like these episodes and rate them amongst the best of TNG which is my favourite series ... but it is undeniable that they suffer from being formulaic, Picard fights for individual rights against the evil admiral.

It's got nothing to do with connotations. It has to do with what they are—and aren't. Calling them preachy and formulaic would be an opinion, but it wouldn't be a contradiction in terms.

 

[horatio83]

Propaganda is perhaps too strong but there is no contradiction. All three episodes are about liberal values, human rights or however you wanna call it and all episodes clearly propagate them. Hence propaganda, with good vibes.
In the same fashion I would call e.g. the last Nolan Batman movie anti-Jacobin propaganda (admittedly here the term propaganda is far more appropriate than in the TNG case). Whether this has good or bad connotations for you obviously depends on your political opinion.

 

[Trekker4747]

Usually when you use the term "propaganda" that implies using some form of media or other method of delivering information to sell people on a certain point of view that suits the views of the one delivering the message rather than suits reality.

Propaganda, for example, was pretty huge during WWII for both sides, in particular it being used by the Axis to sell the idea of how evil the Allies were and how the Axis was on the good fight.

Maybe to a lesser extent here in the U.S. but propaganda was also used to sell Americans on the idea that the war as a whole was a noble, justified and righteous cause. A big part of that propaganda being to turn our enemies into caricatures, to sort of de-humanize them in order to make people "feel better" about what was happening. Namely, this was done when it came to the Japanese.

It's not so much propaganda to have an episode about a man fighting for an individual's rights when he's being treated unfairly or wrongfully accused since, generally, most "Western civilizations" realize that an individual is important and entitled to certain rights. The episodes weren't trying to distort reality in order to present their agenda on something they were simply stating that, hey, individuals are entitled to rights.

So when you come in here and talk about "liberal propaganda" however you want to define either of those words it comes across as sort of insulting when we're talking about episodes where Picard fights for the rights of an individual. You saying they were good episodes doesn't negate the fact that you're rather dismissive or eye-rolling at this "liberal propaganda."

The Measure of a Man
How is it "liberal propaganda"/negative that Picard and the episode expresses the rights of an individual to not be submitted to tests he doesn't want to be a part of? In the narrative of the show Data is an individual and intelligent, "living" being who up until that point had made all of his own decisions in his life. Picard makes the argument for Data's right to choose. Is it really a "bad" thing to say that a person's rights as an individual shouldn't be stripped away simply because it's become inconvenient for someone else all of the sudden? Is it really bad to say that an individual is entitled to the same rights as everyone else?

The Drumhead
How is it "liberal propaganda"/negative that Picard and the episode says that a person shouldn't be found guilty simply because of the heritage of his ancestors and the current status of the relationship between the decedents of those ancestors and the other half of his genetic lineage? We can blame Tarsis for fibbing on his Starfleet paperwork, lying about his Romulan ancestor and saying he was actually a Vulcan, but the fact that he has a Romulan ancestor shouldn't impact his current life. In fact it's a very relevant argument to things going on today where people want to say that anyone with ancestry connected to the Middle East or Muslims must also share the same ideology as the extremists we're constantly in battle with.

It's not propaganda or negative to say that an individual isn't a product of his ancestry and to be judged by it but should rather be judged by himself as an individual.

Leaving us with "I Borg" where, apparently, it's "liberal propaganda"/negative to see, similar to the above example, one individual from a group isn't necessaries guilty of the actions of that entire group. And this is what the crew realize as the episode unfolds and Hugh rediscovers his individuality. There also some question on the morality of committing genocide through that one individual, especially once realizing there's more going on that was realized and that the Borg ARE made of individuals being controlled by a more powerful force into thinking in a singular way.

Liberal values, human rights, propaganda however you want to define them are NOT bad things and not something one should have a problem with when a show expresses them. Think that they ARE bad things and should be criticized is how we get many countries in the Middle East and North Korea.

 

[horatio83]

As I already said, for me propaganda is not per se a bad term and for the umptenth time, I have no issues with liberalism.

But the very fact that there are television episodes produced which preach our own values to ourselves implies that we have not always been truthful to them. So although they are our own rules be do not always obey them and seemingly need to be reminded of them. Yes, it is a dialectical issue. In this context these very episodes are usually considered as brilliant and I agree.
But from a dramatic perspective they always follow the same formula and as there is nothing but the propagation of liberalism (I don't wanna argue semantics, if propaganda is too harsh a term for you use this one) at the core of these episodes which is why they don't work very well when you see them for the second or third time.

I have often defended the Picard vs. the evil admiral formula. Gee, I consider INS a good movie precisely because it was so truthful to the series in this respect. As many fans have issues with INS and as many fans side with Nechayev in "I, Borg" this shows that what you seem to think is wrong, our own values are not so universally accepted as you think they are (yes, this is a dialectical issue). And this is precisely why there is need for "self-propaganda", we need to remind ourselves of what our basic principles, our dogmas (another word many folks will have an issue with but dogma is not a bad word for me, in any kind of society you need some axioms which are not open for debate or as it is often expressed, you cannot vote for or against democracy itself) are.

As I already said, I don't wanna argue semantics. For me propaganda is very positively connotated in this context and the only issue I have with it is that it is a bit too abstract in a dramatic context and became perhaps too much of formula for TNG. It is a formula I love, a formula I have often defended but this doesn't imply that I am unaware of its deficiencies.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

All the sweeter, then, to find out in "Descent" that it in fact did!

But it didn't work, not entirely at least. The infected drones were simply cut loose so they wouldn't infect the entire collective. It's probably reasonable to assume their malicious program idea would have done the same thing.

Sure, it is basically just liberal propaganda...

Seriously?

I do like how that the events in "Descent" are partially Picard's fault, having him face the consequences of his decision in "I Borg". One of my favorite moments were in the ready room with Picard and Riker.

PICARD: "He was in this room, Will. I could have rid the Federation of a mortal threat, and I let him go."
RIKER: "Sending Hugh back to the Borg was a very risky, a very dangerous choice, but it was the moral thing to do."
PICARD: "It may turn out that the moral thing to do was not the right thing to do."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Propaganda is perhaps too strong

If it's too strong a word, then it is the wrong word, yeah?

All three episodes are about liberal values, human rights or however you wanna call it and all episodes clearly propagate them. Hence propaganda, with good vibes.

The venue was commercial television, ergo the writers and other showrunners judged that treatments of certain values made for suitable entertainment. A diversion as entertainment does not generally translate into something influential in peoples' lives.*

The show did not represent a concerted effort to influence public opinion, so it was not "propaganda," in any sense of the word. Moreover, the show certainly did not carry the disinformation that is often, if not usually, pejoratively associated with propaganda; since events took place in a sci-fi/fantasy setting, misrepresentation of reality was not even possible. Propaganda is the wrong word for all these reasons.

But the very fact that there are television episodes produced which preach our own values to ourselves implies that we have not always been truthful to them.

Implies, as in being logically necessary under the circumstances? No, not at all. That's a very narrow perspective on how the show appealed to the audience as the entertainment that it was. Again, the only thing that follows is that the showrunners thought that the episodes made for good entertainment. The venue was commercial television, not a political rally.

* - Unless, for example, you're a member of a message board, still analyzing the show decades after it was aired.

 

[BillJ]

* - Unless, for example, you're a member of a message board, still analyzing the show decades after it was aired.

Who would be crazy enough to do that?

Oh, wait...

 

[horatio83]

Implies, as in being logically necessary under the circumstances? No, not at all. That's a very narrow perspective on how the show appealed to the audience as the entertainment that it was. Again, the only thing that follows is that the showrunners thought that the episodes made for good entertainment. The venue was commercial television, not a political rally.

Nope. The very reason The Drumhead is so popular is precisely the occurrence of events similar to those depicted in the episode in reality.
You are also wrong about the political rally thingy. Sure, the episodes are political but not in the party X vs party Y way. The rights which are violated in those episodes are basic, constitutional rights, in the world of Trek as well as in the real world so everybody is (should be) behind them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Implies, as in being logically necessary under the circumstances? No, not at all. That's a very narrow perspective on how the show appealed to the audience as the entertainment that it was. Again, the only thing that follows is that the showrunners thought that the episodes made for good entertainment. The venue was commercial television, not a political rally.

Nope. The very reason The Drumhead is so popular is precisely the occurrence of events similar to those depicted in the episode in reality.
You are also wrong about the political rally thingy. Sure, the episodes are political but not in the party X vs party Y way. The rights which are violated in those episodes are basic, constitutional rights, in the world of Trek as well as in the real world so everybody is (should be) behind them.

That's nice. I'm done with this.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Let's let this digression end here, OK. Propaganda is a loaded word implying an organized attempt to convince a population, usually by deceptive means without regard for truth. I don't think that's what was meant but it is what was heard.

 

[suarezguy]

The Drumhead
How is it "liberal propaganda"/negative that Picard and the episode says that a person shouldn't be found guilty simply because of the heritage of his ancestors and the current status of the relationship between the decedents of those ancestors and the other half of his genetic lineage?

The episode said a lot more than that, at least around the middle it suggested it was wrong to put anyone under surveillance or change his/her duty schedule even if there is suspicion of personal wrongdoing. I liked that Picard, still reluctantly, took a more nuanced stance in "Violations."

Leaving us with "I Borg" where, apparently, it's "liberal propaganda"/negative to see, similar to the above example, one individual from a group isn't necessaries guilty of the actions of that entire group.

On the other hand, it's at best extreme to allow the individual to return to the group and continue to enslave or destroy others.

Moreover, the show certainly did not carry the disinformation that is often, if not usually, pejoratively associated with propaganda

"The Drumhead" ignored that before and after there had been active and effective Romulan sabotage attempts, it had Picard thinking that because one plot was only apparent most must be.

 

[horatio83]

On the other hand, it's at best extreme to allow the individual to return to the group and continue to enslave or destroy others.

Following the law is moderate and not extreme. The point of the episode was that the Feds have no right to kill Hugh. If they did they would treat Hugh as a drone and be equivalent to the Borg.
Now if Hugh had just been a captured drone there wouldn't be anything wrong with infecting him with a virus as he is still an enemy soldier and war logic applies. But sacrificing somebody who is not part of the conflict anymore violates the law, in the real world as well as in the world of Trek.

In Descent we learned that the effects were limited to one cube anyway and that Hugh's individuality turned out to be as contagious or perhaps even more contagious than the virus would have been. Admittedly this contrast between UFP and Borg ideology was a bit one-dimensional but I nonetheless like that we saw it so pointedly in I, Borg.