TNG Rewatch: 5x02: "Darmok"

[2takesfrakes]

This episode is overrated, but has its virtues, like having two great actors carry almost an entire show, just by their interaction. This episode reminds me of The Original Series, "Arena," in particular, though with a new twist. There are many better Picard shows, but I find that this one has more Rewatch Value than I sometimes give it credit for.

 

[HIjol]

I think you missed the point.

And you pointed the miss! That episode was primocity at its finest.

 

[Marsden]

The episode was creative but a bit too repetitive; I didn't like that by the end we were still unsure about what a lot of the phrases meant and it seemed a bit unbelievable and cruel for the Tamarians to take Picard and expose him to danger, albeit exposing one of their own as well, to communicate a few messages.

Well, if it counts, Damok's XO thought it was a bad idea, too, I think.

 

[Trekker4747]

The episode was creative but a bit too repetitive; I didn't like that by the end we were still unsure about what a lot of the phrases meant and it seemed a bit unbelievable and cruel for the Tamarians to take Picard and expose him to danger, albeit exposing one of their own as well, to communicate a few messages.

Well, if it counts, Damok's XO thought it was a bad idea, too, I think.

He seemed pretty against it, yeah.

 

[Timo]

One does wonder why the Tamarians chose to even attempt communications here. It seems to have been Dathon's pet project, and he could command his crew to cooperate, but why was he so interested in it, when even the curious-as-cats Starfleet didn't bother with further attempts?

Was the Tamarian society backed in a corner of some sort, and in search of allies? Was there a risk of war with the UFP, due to the misunderstandings? Or are Tamarians simply the more curiosity-driven culture of the two?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

One does wonder why the Tamarians chose to even attempt communications here. It seems to have been Dathon's pet project, and he could command his crew to cooperate, but why was he so interested in it, when even the curious-as-cats Starfleet didn't bother with further attempts?

Was the Tamarian society backed in a corner of some sort, and in search of allies? Was there a risk of war with the UFP, due to the misunderstandings? Or are Tamarians simply the more curiosity-driven culture of the two?

Timo Saloniemi

This was not only explained.. it was the point of the episode.

"A danger shared can sometimes bring two people together"

 

[Marsden]

So what was the danger shared by the Tamarians and Federaton?

I saw no answer to that.


There was a personal danger to Damok and Picard, but no danger to each nation mentioned. Damok apparently took it on himself to open up relations, maybe he had orders from Tamarian high command to get it done by any means necessary. But why was never explained.

 

[Cyke101]

Someone made an earlier post about how metaphor-based languages come to develop. I just took Tamarian as a bunch of neologisms and slang that became standardized, and the first thing that popped in my head:

"DJ Shaka Khan, when the beats dropped!"

oontz oontz oontz oontz oontz

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

So what was the danger shared by the Tamarians and Federaton?

I saw no answer to that.


There was a personal danger to Damok and Picard, but no danger to each nation mentioned. Damok apparently took it on himself to open up relations, maybe he had orders from Tamarian high command to get it done by any means necessary. But why was never explained.

It had nothing to do with the respective empires. Dathon wanted to make friends with Picard, and to have it mean something

 

[Timo]

Which doesn't explain why Dathon would have this desire. Just a personal quirk (as indicated by his crew not agreeing)? A command from on high? An external threat that Dathon wants to deal with while his superiors remain uninterested?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

After all, Darmok & Jalad @ Tanagra was not the initial mission. It was an audible play that Dathon called. We can't be sure what the original plan was or why they chose now to come forth with it

I'd think Picard nabs it in his final line. At least they're not new enemies. Something tells me that the two cultures were so alien to one another, that both may have felt a pressure to resolve some things, for fear that colonizing spread would expose them to further encounters which run the risk of going badly, and plunge them into adversarial relations

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

After all, Darmok & Jalad @ Tanagra was not the initial mission. It was an audible play that Dathon called. We can't be sure what the original plan was or why they chose now to come forth with it.

I'm not sure about that. Dathon had specifically selected El Adrel and I have to believe it was because of the entity that lived there. Otherwise, the encounter could have occurred anywhere.

 

[Mojochi]

After all, Darmok & Jalad @ Tanagra was not the initial mission. It was an audible play that Dathon called. We can't be sure what the original plan was or why they chose now to come forth with it.

I'm not sure about that. Dathon had specifically selected El Adrel and I have to believe it was because of the entity that lived there. Otherwise, the encounter could have occurred anywhere.

That's a good point. Not so much an audible as it was a fallback plan then, which his crew may not have known about, and his XO certainly didn't agree with. It still felt like it wasn't the original plan. It seemed like the plan was routine contact protocol, and when that failed, the EL Adrel option was Dathon's 2nd choice, which he jumped to right quick, because either he or The Tamarians in general might have been more frustrated by the past failures than Starfleet

It seems like they are more driven to get relations off the ground than Starfleet, either because that's their cultural way, or there was an overlying need or agenda, like they plan to start branching out their exploration or commerce and are worried they'll step on Federation toes, without proper relations forged

 

[Trekker4747]

I dunno, when Dathon says "Darmok" and given the mild battle between him and his First Officer it does seem that it was an "audible" of sorts.

When Dathon first says "Darmok" it does seem to be in a tone that very much suggest it's either just now occurring to him or he's finally at a last resort. If this was the plan all along I think the issue would have already been settled between him and his crew and we wouldn't have gotten the little battle between him and the first officer.

Now, he may have picked El Adrel so that he could use this fall-back plan should he need to resort to it or it could be it just happened to have a creature on it for him and Picard to battle.

 

[Mojochi]

I dunno, when Dathon says "Darmok" and given the mild battle between him and his First Officer it does seem that it was an "audible" of sorts.

When Dathon first says "Darmok" it does seem to be in a tone that very much suggest it's either just now occurring to him or he's finally at a last resort. If this was the plan all along I think the issue would have already been settled between him and his crew and we wouldn't have gotten the little battle between him and the first officer.

Now, he may have picked El Adrel so that he could use this fall-back plan should he need to resort to it or it could be it just happened to have a creature on it for him and Picard to battle.

I'm not getting a distinctly improvised inflection from Dathon in the initial suggestion of Darmok, as least not completely. He says it with a little fortitude, like he'd previously given it some thought.

We've already established that they are nearly impossible to understand by any normal standard. I'd say it's fair to call his ultimate exchange with the XO a heated disagreement, but something as simple as one word with a questionable inflection is a bit tougher to call. I'm now leaning toward Dathon had it in the back of his mind all along, even if his crew or maybe even his superiors weren't briefed on such. In fact, Picard seems to suggest as much at the end.

You hoped this would happen, didn't you? You knew there was a dangerous creature on this planet. And you knew from the tale of Darmok that danger shared
can sometimes bring two people together.

I suppose it's possible that it was a turn of luck for Dathon, that the creature was down there, & he figured out, in that moment, that he could use it in that way, but it seems just as likely that he had it in the back of his mind all along too, as a fall back plan, which really would be a last resort no one would want to go with

 

[Mojochi]

I popped it on, on Netflix. lol

I think the thing that gets me is that the universal translator IS working. Shaka when the walls fell. That's English, man. When the walls fell? That can either be good or bad, depending on what side of the walls you're on, right? So you can make the assumption from his deflated inflection & the words you DO understand that the walls falling is bad, that the sentence means something bad

Timba, His arms wide. There's another one. He says it while giving you something. Sounds like an offering

Edit: Anyone else find it cool as hell that, at the end, Picard is apparently casually reading the Homeric Hymns in Greek?

 

[Trekker4747]

Yeah, as I said above the UT *is* working it's translating the Tamarian language into "English." But the translation itself isn't making sense because of how the Tamarians use language, the UT is making a literal translation.

Some of the "translations" should make some sense, and Picard even on the bridge seems to pick up the "When the walls fell.." line, but that's one phrase of many.

To understand "Darmok and Jillad and Tanagra" Picard has to know the whos, whats, and whys of that phrase.

And, as I said, in my review it's likely there's more to the Tamarian language that goes beyond the verbal in order for them to be able to build these stories that are the foundation of their language and order to do more mundane day-to-day tasks. (Unless there's a great Tamarians story on the great warrior who ran the level-3 diagnostic on the lateral sensor array.)

As I said above my supposition they could have a telepathic form of communication or some other non-verbal form of communication that couldn't be picked up by our characters, a type of telepathy Troi and other humanoids aren't sensitive to, or they have a complex written language they use to do most of their communication. The verbal just compressing that written word into a single phrase.

To use Crusher's example, imagine reading "Romeo and Juliet" as it is now but when you talk to someone verbally you just make romantic phrases based around that story in order to invoke the image. "Romeo and Juliet" being akin to an "English book" or a "Dictionary" everyone is familiar with in order to communicate.

Language lessons on Tamaria could just be a big literature class and then how to compress entire tales into phrases.

It's a language that "could" work but requires a very, very abstract way of thinking and looking at things.

As I said in my review, we sort-of see this in the episode as the Enterprise works to fight the Tamarians and and all of talking back-and-forth that has to happen between the human characters to do something as simple as prepare for a battle. The Tamarians have compressed all of this into a simple phrase.

Again, it's an interesting thing to think about and with the right way of thinking it's beautiful in how it is presented and how it could work.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I think the El-Aurians wanted to communicate with the Federation emmissaries, whoever they might be. They had tried in the past, but no understanding could be reached. El Adrel was chosen because of the creature and it's location. Dathon figured that they'd try talking again in orbit over the comm system but if that was fruitless again, he'd beam himself and the otehr captian down (a plan which his first officer didn't like) to the planet to face the creature together, share the danger, and earn each other's respect.

That simple.

And yes the translator is not working, but it couldn't provide the context or the meaning of the metaphors. All of this was explained in the show.

 

[Mojochi]

.To understand "Darmok and Jillad and Tanagra" Picard has to know the whos, whats, and whys of that phrase.

To grasp the full meaning perhaps, but to forge a basic understanding not so much. And & at are small words, but they provide sentence structure, and thereby context. Plus, that's one of the most basic examples. More often it's more descriptive or elaborated on, like when he 1st spoke...

Rai and Jiri at Lungha. (2 somethings or someones at somewhere)
Rai of Lowani. (The 1st is of something or somewhere)
Lowani under two moons. (Now we can guess it's a place)
Jiri of Ubaya. (The 2nd is from a different thing or place)
Ubaya of crossed roads. (Also now likely a place)
At Lungha. Lungha, her sky grey. (A 3rd place that they are both now at)

From the whole thing, we can extrapolate that Rai & Jiri are 2 beings that have come to a common place where neither of them originated. Rai comes from a place "under 2 moons". We could take that literally or based on the next phrase, assume it's figurative. Figuratively, it could mean several things, binary, split, being pulled in two directions etc... But the important idea is duality of some kind. Jiri comes from a place with "crossed roads". Figuratively, that seems to suggest divergent paths, or a place where a new direction can be taken, etc... Both these individuals, with their different figurative identities have come to the same place, that has a grey sky, a realm that is cloudy... Unclear

Dathon has described what they are doing there. They've come desiring a clarity be achieved between them. Maybe the Tamarians think they are like Jiri, from a place that's at a crossroads, ready to engage a new journey, and maybe they think the Federation is like Rai, from a place that has a duality. Maybe peaceful or maybe not. It's all right there

Now if Picard had tried to work with what he was hearing, they might have avoided the Darmok contingency. Then , once Darmok had begun, he was given a 2nd chance to understand what it was about, with the knife exchange. Had he done so, Dathon might not have had to die. He didn't even do a very good job of interpreting the gestures and body language. He was was deliberately written as dense, IMHO.


I mean what does the river Temarc likely do in winter? It stops running. Most of their phrases are descriptive like that

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Mojochi, at TrekBBS, our eyes opened.