Just to split hairs: Didn't To Seek a Newer World use elements of the STXI deleted scenes? I'm sure the blurb I read at trekmovie.com mentioned Nero's stint at Rura Penthe, which "didn't happen" in the final film.
TNG Relaunch Question Regarding Picard's XO
- Thread starter Smellincoffee
- Start date
Deleted scenes are like any other non-canonical material. They can be drawn on for ideas, just as ST XI drew on Vonda McIntyre's first names for Kirk's parents and William Rotsler's first name for Uhura, or as ENT drew on a gaming supplement for Andorian climate and culture, or as various novels over the years have drawn on other novels, comics, RPGs, etc.
My point is that it's a mistake to assume that Madden exists by default as a part of the canon. That's what's implied by the language that he had to be "discounted" or "compromised" in order to justify not using him. What I'm saying is that there was no requirement or expectation that a non-canonical character would be used in the first place. There's nothing forbidding the use of a non-canonical character, but it's a mistake to assume that there has to be some special reason for not using him. Canonically, the identity of the E-E's first officer after NEM was unknown, period. So while the tie-ins could've chosen to use Madden, they were under no obligation to do so, and there's no need to justify why they didn't.
My point is that it's a mistake to assume that Madden exists by default as a part of the canon. That's what's implied by the language that he had to be "discounted" or "compromised" in order to justify not using him. What I'm saying is that there was no requirement or expectation that a non-canonical character would be used in the first place. There's nothing forbidding the use of a non-canonical character, but it's a mistake to assume that there has to be some special reason for not using him. Canonically, the identity of the E-E's first officer after NEM was unknown, period. So while the tie-ins could've chosen to use Madden, they were under no obligation to do so, and there's no need to justify why they didn't.
I think Christopher makes some good points, however I disagree on Madden lacking a back story and personality. There was a glimmer of a personality, perhaps a dry or naive one in the deleted scene, and even a bit of a back story, we know he came from the USS Talos. I don't think it would be hard to actually create a back story or give the man a personality. The new TNG characters were largely created whole cloth, I don't see why a personality and a more in-depth back story couldn't have been given to Madden if the writers were so inclined. Also, the new characters are just as non-canonical as Madden, who at least got a deleted scene and also has a mention in the Nemesis novelization, according to Memory Beta, and KRAD's Q & A.
^ This. I honestly don't understand Christopher's argument that Madden had no personality or backstory. Of course not... he was "on screen" for what, all of two minutes? Not much time to really establish anything. If it had been decided to use Madden in the relaunch, the authors would have given him a personality and backstory, just like they did for the other new relaunch characters.
Of course, that personality would have been completely ignored and changed once Before Dishonor came along...
Of course, that personality would have been completely ignored and changed once Before Dishonor came along...
I'm not saying it couldn't have been. Heck, I'm the guy writing a whole novel about two DTI agents who were onscreen for less than four minutes. My point is that there's no reason why the writers should've defaulted to that. I mean, why would that be better than using the character of Worf, who has abundant backstory already established and a huge fanbase, and extending his story further? Why should anyone have to justify the choice of Worf over the hypothetical Madden? Yes, of course developing Madden could have been done, but by what possible argument would that be the preferable choice? Where's the benefit in making the new Enterprise first officer just one more Anglo-Saxon human male? How 1960s is that?
^
You raise some good questions. Believe me I wouldn't prefer Madden over Worf, who is one of my favorite Trek characters. I also believe that diversity is a good thing and have no particular desire to see the Enterprise-E headed by two Anglo-Saxon males after the Picard-Riker duo from TNG and the films. In fact I did have issues with the initial lineup of the new TNG characters because I felt there were too many humans. Though I give credit for creating human characters with ethnic/cultural backgrounds rarely or never explored on TNG, particularly Jasminder (sp) and Elfiki (sp).
With Madden I thought he could be some good canon fodder, especially for Resistance. I would've been shocked perhaps more than I was with the other character deaths if the XO had bought the farm. I prefer Worf as XO, but I wouldn't have minded it being a battlefield decision either.
You raise some good questions. Believe me I wouldn't prefer Madden over Worf, who is one of my favorite Trek characters. I also believe that diversity is a good thing and have no particular desire to see the Enterprise-E headed by two Anglo-Saxon males after the Picard-Riker duo from TNG and the films. In fact I did have issues with the initial lineup of the new TNG characters because I felt there were too many humans. Though I give credit for creating human characters with ethnic/cultural backgrounds rarely or never explored on TNG, particularly Jasminder (sp) and Elfiki (sp).
With Madden I thought he could be some good canon fodder, especially for Resistance. I would've been shocked perhaps more than I was with the other character deaths if the XO had bought the farm. I prefer Worf as XO, but I wouldn't have minded it being a battlefield decision either.
Similarly, several "The Lost Years" saga novels - and the more recent "Ex Machina", of course - have utilized Vice Admiral Lori Ciana, a character given personality, backstory and purpose in the novels, even though she was an unidentified transporter accident victim played by a no-line extra in ST:TMP - to anyone who hasn't read the novelization.
Vonda McIntyre got several books worth of subplots out of extrapolating a scripted dialogue instruction for Jedda (his line to be said with "Deltan cool"). Canonical Jedda ended up with a non-canonical surname, a bondmate on Project Genesis, two more bondmates on the homeworld, and all received surnames.
^I read all the Lost Years novels, but since I never read the TMP novelization (bar the preface, where Kirk dispels rumours of an affair with Spock 
) it wasn't until I read Ex Machina early this year that I realized Lori died in that transporter mishap 
.
) it wasn't until I read Ex Machina early this year that I realized Lori died in that transporter mishap .
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Actually she did receive one line. "Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!!"
