Indeed. It speaks to the nature of TOS where in the first two pilots involve a lot of laser blasts and fisticuffs as part of the resolution of the story (Pike vs. the Talosians, Kirk vs. Mitchell). There was "action" in this action/adventure story
TNG fan watches TOS for first time
- Thread starter Thomas Elliot
- Start date
For anyone who cares here is my TNG rewatch thread from 2011. It's a loong read (58 pages). https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/revisiting-st-tng.136980/
Page 53 summarizes the number of episodes in each category of how I rated them. Essentially I found 56 episodes to be Good-Excellent of which 14 of them I rated as Excellent. 56 episodes doesn't quite make three seasons of 22 episodes.
Another 56 episodes I rated as Fair. These episodes were essentially just okay--I didn't hate them, but they just didn't wow me either. For some they would be like comfort food, but for myself I was left wanting. With some of them it mightn't have taken much to nudge them up to Good.
The remaining episodes I found Poor-Bad. They were a chore to get through and if I never see them again that would be okay.
Page 53 summarizes the number of episodes in each category of how I rated them. Essentially I found 56 episodes to be Good-Excellent of which 14 of them I rated as Excellent. 56 episodes doesn't quite make three seasons of 22 episodes.
Another 56 episodes I rated as Fair. These episodes were essentially just okay--I didn't hate them, but they just didn't wow me either. For some they would be like comfort food, but for myself I was left wanting. With some of them it mightn't have taken much to nudge them up to Good.
The remaining episodes I found Poor-Bad. They were a chore to get through and if I never see them again that would be okay.
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I am more of a
Tos fan then tng but darmlock.e.y.b.o.b.and a.g.t are good tng
Eps. That would not work in tos
Tos fan then tng but darmlock.e.y.b.o.b.and a.g.t are good tng
Eps. That would not work in tos
I can't say I disagree with your final analysis in that thread. It's been a contentious opinion in the past, but I too think the first 3-4 seasons arguably have the better episodes, and that there's a sharp drop in quality generally in 5 and 6. Season 7 is the weakest for me, it's just a show that's run out of gasoline. There's very little in the 7th season that I usually feel any compulsion to revisit.
I do like that the feel of the first few seasons veers closer to TOS, generally. The characters and situations are different, but there's that TOS-like sense of, the danger out there, the mystery, the fun, a wild ride. The later seasons of TNG pretty much just become very... I don't know, sterile.
Indeed, "The Cage" pointedly begins with the crew beaten-up, emotionally and physically, after a bloody massacre.
For those who might be curious here are the TNG episodes as I rated them.Sounds like an interesting challenge.
Excellent:
“Elementary, Dear Data”
“The Measure Of A Man”
“Q Who”
“Yesterday’s Enterprise”
“The Offspring”
"Sins Of The Father"
“Sarek”
“The Best Of Both Worlds” (Part I)
"Best Of Both Worlds" (Part II)
“Darmok”
“Ensign Ro”
“Parallels”
“The Pegasus”
“Lower Decks”
Good:
"Where No One Has Gone Before"
"11001001"
"Symbiosis"
"Conspiracy"
“Where Silence Has Lease”
“Unnatural Selection”
“A Matter Of Honor”
“Contagion”
“Pen Pals”
“Up The Long Ladder”
“The Ensigns Of Command”
“The Survivors”
“The Enemy”
“The Vengeance Factor”
“The Defector”
“Captain’s Holiday”
"Reunion"
"Future Imperfect"
"First Contact"
"Galaxy's Child"
“Night Terrors”
"Identity Crises"
"The Nth Degree"
"The Drumhead"
"Half A Life"
"Redemption" (Part I)
“A Matter Of Time”
“The Masterpiece Society”
“Ethics”
“The First Duty”
“I, Borg”
“Inner Light”
“Time’s Arrow” (Part I)
“Time’s Arrow” (Part II)
“Chain Of Command” (Part II)
“Ship In A Bottle”
“Face Of The Enemy”
“Birthright” (Part II)
“The Chase”
“Frame Of Mind”
“Rightful Heir”
“Inheritance”
Fair:
"Haven"
"The Last Outpost"
"Datalore"
"Home Soil"
"When The Bough Breaks"
"Heart Of Glory"
"The Arsenal Of Freedom"
"Skin Of Evil"
"The Neutral Zone"
“The Child”
“The Schizoid Man"
“Loud As A Whisper”
“The Emissary”
“Peak Performance”
“Evolution”
“Who Watches The Watchers”
“Booby Trap”
“The Hunted”
“The High Ground”
“Tin Man”
“The Most Toys”
“Transfigurations”
"Family"
"Legacy"
"Final Mission"
"The Loss"
“The Wounded”
"Devil's Due"
"Clues"
“Redemption” (Part II)
“Silicon Avatar”
“Unification” (Part I)
“Unification” (Part II)
“Conundrum”
“Power Play”
“Cause And Effect”
“The Perfect Mate”
“The Next Phase”
“Relics”
“Schisms”
“The Quality Of Life”
“Chain Of Command” (Part I)
“Tapestry”
“Birthright” (Part I)
“Starship Mine”
“Second Chances”
“Timescape”
“Interface”
“Attached”
“Force Of Nature”
“Homeward”
“Genesis”
“Journey’s End”
“Preemptive Strike”
“All Good Things” (Part I)
“All Good Things” (Part II)
The remaining episodes might have had viable ideas, but the execution was botched or just plain wasted.
I have been gone from Trek BBS for nearly 2 1/2 years after a move, so I am GLAD to be back and hope to be posting a little more regularly! Hope some people still remember me! I was 5 years old when TOS ended, never having seen it in prime time. Reruns in the early 70s are how I watched and grew to love this series that is deeply ingrained in me. Mind you, it was not--and I repeat NOT--cool to be known as a Star Trek fan in the early to mid-70s. Once TMP came along and the movies that followed, that began to change, thankfully!.
TNG isn't a bad series--it's just not the Star Trek I grew up with. It's a fair statement to say that every Trek series has great episodes, some really bad episodes, and most that fall somewhere along that spectrum. And we all know which ones we like and which ones we don't! I have seen a few TNG episodes, and they weren't bad. In fact, I like several of the main characters, but again, it's just not the Star Trek I grew up with. To anyone who disparages TOS, which was WAAAAAY ahead of its time, let me say that without TOS there would be no TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, or Discovery. Long live the crew of NCC-1701! And as my main man Scotty said, "No bloody A, B, C or D."
I was 5 years old when TOS ended, never having seen it in prime time. Reruns in the early 70s are how I watched and grew to love this series that is deeply ingrained in me. Mind you, it was not--and I repeat NOT--cool to be known as a Star Trek fan in the early to mid-70s. Once TMP came along and the movies that followed, that began to change, thankfully!. TNG isn't a bad series--it's just not the Star Trek I grew up with. It's a fair statement to say that every Trek series has great episodes, some really bad episodes, and most that fall somewhere along that spectrum. And we all know which ones we like and which ones we don't! I have seen a few TNG episodes, and they weren't bad. In fact, I like several of the main characters, but again, it's just not the Star Trek I grew up with. To anyone who disparages TOS, which was WAAAAAY ahead of its time, let me say that without TOS there would be no TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, or Discovery. Long live the crew of NCC-1701! And as my main man Scotty said, "No bloody A, B, C or D."
My understanding is that the whole ritual combat thing is almost NEVER evoked on modern Vulcan, so that all concerned were genuinely startled (in their stoic Vulcan way) when T'Pring actually played that card. I equate it to the custom in modern American weddings where the officiant formally asks if anyone present has any objection to the union. Nobody really expects anyone to stand up and protest at that point, but it's a standard part of the ceremony, pretty much observed only for tradition's sake. Same for the whole hand-to-hand combat thing on Vulcan.
I don't think we're to assume that modern Vulcans routinely battle to the death over their mates. What T'Pring did was highly unexpected. "Wait? You're seriously evoking that barbaric old custom that died off long ago?"
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No question, that was the show's intention.
That T'Pring was a crafty young woman! She'd worked out that whatever happened she'd never have Spock even if she married him and preferred Stonn! Spock's words to his Vulcan opponent did have some validity if you've read the DC comic books too! 
JB
JB
Yeah, it was absolutely T'Pring playing the situation to her advantage. The fight to the death is clearly a 'technical' tradition -- She's within her right to call it, but it's very unusual.
In reality, Spock's desire for her is being driven by primal urges, and have taken him over. He doesn't truly "want" his arranged marriage... and, crucially, neither does she. Perhaps on some level, she does what she does to get both of them out of a situation neither wants. She wants her life with Stonn on Vulcan, and he is an incredibly valuable asset to Starfleet and the Federation as a whole. Her motivations are driven partly by her own wants, but also by an understanding of Spock's wants. It would be a loveless marriage for both of them.
I think this is what makes "Amok Time" such a compelling episode, even today. T'Pring is an astonishingly modern character by 1960s television standards, making the choices she wants for her life, an independant woman. The fight ritual is simply a means to that end, but she doesn't do it entirely selfishly, and does have some regret that Kirk is (seemingly) a casualty of what must be done. In that way, it's very Vulcan. Her methodology is logical to the very end.
In reality, Spock's desire for her is being driven by primal urges, and have taken him over. He doesn't truly "want" his arranged marriage... and, crucially, neither does she. Perhaps on some level, she does what she does to get both of them out of a situation neither wants. She wants her life with Stonn on Vulcan, and he is an incredibly valuable asset to Starfleet and the Federation as a whole. Her motivations are driven partly by her own wants, but also by an understanding of Spock's wants. It would be a loveless marriage for both of them.
I think this is what makes "Amok Time" such a compelling episode, even today. T'Pring is an astonishingly modern character by 1960s television standards, making the choices she wants for her life, an independant woman. The fight ritual is simply a means to that end, but she doesn't do it entirely selfishly, and does have some regret that Kirk is (seemingly) a casualty of what must be done. In that way, it's very Vulcan. Her methodology is logical to the very end.
You're kidding. She subjects Spock and Kirk to a fight in which one of them is sure to die. She knows that even if Spock wins, he will have killed his captain and be done in Starfleet.
By her own account, all she really had to do to "have it all" was marry Spock and cheat on him with Stonn. She wasn't thinking of Spock's best interests! She's a remorseless sociopath.
Well I would agree with some of that and I don't think T'Pring cared a jot about Kirk or Spock for that matter! She even leads Stonn up the garden path because he believed it was to be him that faced Spock in the contest!!! She has planned the whole event right down to the last with her winning whatever the results!
JB
JB
I think the episode ends up with a win-win-win scenario for Spock, Kirk and Stonn/T'Pring. You know, the deception of killing Kirk will be shortly exposed to all the Vulcans (especially T'Pau) involved in the marriage ceremony. Just a couple months later, Spock's parents will meet the "dead" Captain in Journey to Babel. 
Would Stonn and T'Pring need an annulment since the marriage ceremony was fraudulent? I expect the whole disgraceful affair would be swept under the Vulcan rug.
Would Stonn and T'Pring need an annulment since the marriage ceremony was fraudulent? I expect the whole disgraceful affair would be swept under the Vulcan rug.
Meaning she improvised on the fly. Stonn was to be the challenger only there was always the risk he could lose to Spock. With Kirk present T’Pring saw another way without risking Stonn.
Nice to see that Vulcans never change
@Maurice
Regarding Spock's mind meld with van Gelder,
I thought the point was that the Vulcan mind meld is not hypnotism.
It was a long time ago so my memory may be wrong but I thought I read that at ffirst NBC thought the mind meld was hypnotism and they wanted an official medical doctor, McCoy to do it. So it had to be explained to them what a mind meld was and why Spock can do it and not McCoy.
So in that NBC memo you quoted, I'm not sure why they're providing guidelines for how to depict hypnotism when it's not.
As I said, my memory may be wrong and if it is, I'd like to be set straight. I'm talking about reading stuff like TMoST and The World of Star Trek way back in the 70s.
Robert
Regarding Spock's mind meld with van Gelder,
I thought the point was that the Vulcan mind meld is not hypnotism.
It was a long time ago so my memory may be wrong but I thought I read that at ffirst NBC thought the mind meld was hypnotism and they wanted an official medical doctor, McCoy to do it. So it had to be explained to them what a mind meld was and why Spock can do it and not McCoy.
So in that NBC memo you quoted, I'm not sure why they're providing guidelines for how to depict hypnotism when it's not.
As I said, my memory may be wrong and if it is, I'd like to be set straight. I'm talking about reading stuff like TMoST and The World of Star Trek way back in the 70s.
Robert
I think it went like this, per what Nimoy has written, probably in I am Not Spock that I read decades ago:
1. The original script called for Van Gelder to be questioned, in what Nimoy called a boring exposition scene.
2. Nimoy invented the Vulcan mind meld to juice up the scene and make his own character more special.
3. Nimoy got the episode writer to re-do the scene.
4. NBC thought the new scene was like hypnotism and sent their note about who should do it and so forth.
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