This was the first episode in release order to feature it.
Aside from Picard's fantasy in GEN
TNG fan watches TOS for first time
- Thread starter Thomas Elliot
- Start date
For me, this is what Star Trek has lost in its transition from afterthought 60's TV series to franchise. Somewhere along the way, it lost its ability to be larger-than-life. Does that make later Trek bad? No, but simply not as engaging, where I keep wanting to go back and revisit it again and again.
Though I do count TMP as one of my all-time favorite movies. As it progressed, it felt like the characters were slowly returning to what we knew.
The difference between TOS and the other Treks and also many other shows of the sixties, seventies and now, is that back then each week we got a complete adventure and story where as now we get episodes where nothing much really happens like Picard trapped in the lift! That or everything now is serialised instead of stand alone shows! 
JB
JB
I grew up with both, barely getting a taste of TOS as a toddler before TNG premiered. Yet I always had a deep appreciation for TOS. I got so burnt-out on years of Berman-era Trek that I absolutely couldn't stand it anymore for the longest time. I don't think I even watched "Nemesis" until about five years after it was released.
For years the only Trek I ever revisited was TOS. It is pure, true and unadulterated Star Trek, the way it was meant to be. When it comes down to it, TOS is the only Trek that I really care about, that really means something to me.
Sure, there are entertaining bits in the rest of the franchise, and now I can even stand to watch some of it again. But that's a different beast, and to me it's a separate thing from my Star Trek.
Kor
For years the only Trek I ever revisited was TOS. It is pure, true and unadulterated Star Trek, the way it was meant to be. When it comes down to it, TOS is the only Trek that I really care about, that really means something to me.
Sure, there are entertaining bits in the rest of the franchise, and now I can even stand to watch some of it again. But that's a different beast, and to me it's a separate thing from my Star Trek.
Kor
And in production order as well.
Originally, Spock was going to hypnotize Van Gelder. The network censors objected on the grounds that (A) Spock wasn't a qualified medical practitioner, and (B) you couldn't show the act of hypnosis because a viewer might accidentally get hypnotized! And thus the Vulcan mind-meld was born.
I think that's also why you couldn't show a circumcision. NBC took no chances.
There are great episodes between 'The Measure of a Man' and 'Yesterday's Enterprise', right?
Meanwhile, more than enough TV shows before and after that showed hypnotism without sending the viewing public into trances.... almost every comedy of the day did and nearly every show which featured characters being hypnotized did it wrong or made it too easy.
Besides, a few cuts to McCoy in a reaction shot, or other judicious editing would have solved the issues. I really kinda think that, like whacking Evil Kirk with a gun butt, hypnosis for Spock is just boring. I haven't seen a network memo on this and Harvey or Maurice could probably haul one out, but would NBC have said "don't do it! People will be hypnotized" or would they have advised caution in illustrating the process to minimize the possibility?
Besides, a few cuts to McCoy in a reaction shot, or other judicious editing would have solved the issues. I really kinda think that, like whacking Evil Kirk with a gun butt, hypnosis for Spock is just boring. I haven't seen a network memo on this and Harvey or Maurice could probably haul one out, but would NBC have said "don't do it! People will be hypnotized" or would they have advised caution in illustrating the process to minimize the possibility?
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The way I understand it from vintage TV is that you just dangle a pocket watch in front of someone's eyes and say "You are getting sleepy." That usually does the trick. Sitcoms would usually have the wrong character, a skeptical bystander, go under without the hypnotist's knowledge. Suggestion is implanted, hilarity ensues.
Where I saw it is anybody's guess, but wasn't there a memo from "Dagger" that I can almost quote saying, "If hypnosis is used, care must be taken that the viewer is not hypnotized" ? Maybe, and this is a guess, I read it in I am Not Spock.
I think it's a common (but poor) mistake to casually mislabel McCoy and Spock's varous adversarial exchanges as "racist." Much like Odo and Quark, there was an understanding between the two of them that they were polar opposites, but had a strong, grudging respect for each other despite that. The back-and-forth between them is their way of digging each other, but also of acknowledging/proving hard points about their differences at times.
Not every adversarial exchange designed to recognize and be open about differences between people of differing backgrounds is automatically "racism."
Also, I'm not sure where this "older fans like TOS, naturally" thing comes from. I'm not exactly an "older fan" and I believe there are several other huge TOS fans participating here who would not be considered "older." No offense taken (honestly) but it's too easy to say "well, of course the older folks like TOS more than TNG" as rationalization.
My preference for TOS has nothing to do with my age. I just find TOS to be vastly more interesting and exciting by comparison because it's not trying too hard to be quasi-intellectual science fiction.
That doesn't make TNG a bad show. It just makes TOS better.
Not every adversarial exchange designed to recognize and be open about differences between people of differing backgrounds is automatically "racism."
Also, I'm not sure where this "older fans like TOS, naturally" thing comes from. I'm not exactly an "older fan" and I believe there are several other huge TOS fans participating here who would not be considered "older." No offense taken (honestly) but it's too easy to say "well, of course the older folks like TOS more than TNG" as rationalization.
My preference for TOS has nothing to do with my age. I just find TOS to be vastly more interesting and exciting by comparison because it's not trying too hard to be quasi-intellectual science fiction.
That doesn't make TNG a bad show. It just makes TOS better.
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Aside from Picard's fantasy in GEN
I've noticed that lots of fans like to pretend that things like Christmas don't exist in the Star Trek universe, despite several front-and-center examples to the contrary.
Trouble with Tribbles
I immediately liked the story starting off with the Enterprise crew on shore leave.
I did not like the Klingons here. What the hell happened to them? There was the charismatic charm of might equals right of Kor, and the short tempered alpha male warrior leader of Kang, both of which who look like another species.
Now we get Koloth who looks like a regular 60s, goateed dude saying cheesy bad guy stuff like "My deeeeear Captain..." and smiling like a not-at-all sneaky villain. The actor that played Korax was good tho. He had a steely expression and played the bully role well. He was like barely held in aggression, then later, alpha bully swagger.
It was nice to see life outside the Enterprise, and see a more social aspect to this universe. I like that the way the Klingons react to tribbles kind of backs up what Worf said later about tribbles being the arch enemy of the Klingons.
A "nice" episode. Nothing special but it was alright.
Amok Time
I loved the mystery of Spock suddenly becoming violent and agitated. I knew what the story was ahead of time but it still was a well-presented urgent mystery. Spock's arranged wife...she's hot. Of course he's going to get an attractive, exotic wife.
And we get to see Vulcan! The opening shots of these alien worlds are great. Almost cinematic to me. It surprised me.
Spock mentioning he's allowed to bring his friends and asks Kirk was expected. Not you McCoy. But then Spock DOES ask McCoy as well. Touching.
The entourage of Vulcans coming out looked odd and alien, and I thought it was done well for the budget and time it was done. One guy had a black mask obscuring his whole face looking like something out of Mad Max. And T'Pring asksing that Kirk fight Spock for her. She must recognize an alpha male when she sees one. Is this gonna be a love triangle?
The old lady from the Karate Kid plays T'Pau. I wasn't so sure about this but she did great.
One thing that surprised me. Vulcans are peaceful and all about logic, but it makes NO sense that they'd fight to the death over a woman or mate. Okay, yeah, it's an ancient tradition, but weren't they supposed to evolve from barbaric traditions with Surak's lessons? I can forgive this, because this is the first show and they're just trying to get a feel for these characters that they just created as they go.
I liked how they explained Kirk accepting the participation. T'Pau's influential and he doesn't want to look bad or make Starfleet look bad. But again, how logical is it to have someone accept something when they don't know the consequences are life and death? Sounds pretty barbaric to me.
The action sequence and choreography was pretty good! Kirk got sliced up right away. I didn't like the cheap-looking foil outfits for the Vulcans. But whatever. Everything else looked really good, and I'm still impressed with the marriage/pon farr procession. I felt the way Kirk and McCoy must have felt seeing Vulcan culture and tradition for the first time.
I don't see how T'pring was logical to Spock. When there's no emotion there's no motive for violence. And yet T'pring orchestrated this plot which was dependent upon violent and someone's murder. I get in-story that it was just showing that T'pring is so emotionally detached, like Vulcans but to me it doesn't fit in with the overall mythos of Vulcans. I like Spock's parting words to her gigolo.
The way it played out I really was expecting Spock to assume command and Kirk's "death" would be initially chalked up to a necessary diplomatic sacrifice. When Kirk says "I shall do neither" and immediately and seemingly unemotionally starts making preparations for Scotty to be next in command while he submits himself for arrest was great. When Kirk appears behind him and says, "Don't you think you should check with me first," Spock's exasperated and surprised reaction of "Captain!" is perfect. I don't think they needed the additional "Jim!" and big smile. It felt unnecessary. Just him saying "Captain!" you felt the surprise and happiness.
As I said before, these episodes just keep getting better and better.
Journey to Babel
Mark Lenard playing Sarek is amazing. The dialogue and performance really do sell the absolute logic of Vulcans. Even the little two-finger holding of him and Amanda, as small as it is, sells the idea of a different and odd alien culture. Is it just their version of holding hands? A symbol of unity? They don't need to explain it.
This was also a great episode and I liked how they explained Spock's damaged relationship with his father. I like the world building of the Enterprise gathering all these diplomats. I loved seeing the crowded hallways and the interactions.
Oh yeah, the silly fuzzy aliens with the My Martian antennae! I remember the species got a cemeo in TNG's "Data's Daughter" episode. I thought it looked out of place and an Easter Egg at the expense of the "realism." I believe they also got featured in ENT.
Anyway, the acting of them was good though! The one that was telling Spock that he's looking at the murder mystery too logically was great. The accent was interesting, the weight of his words made you think, yeah, this is an alien from anther world.
Who Mourns for Adonais
I remember this one as a kid. Only because I remember giant Roman or Greek gods. But that's about it.
The giant big green hand was goofy, even by 60s standards. I was going to switch to a different episode but stuck it through.
The guy playing Apollo really did look like a greek god. I thought Kirk was supposed to be considered "in shape" but this dude made Kirk look small. He also didn't play a typical maniacal evil god. Nice.
I was thinking it was going to be an alien masquerading as one of Earth's mythical gods but they actually went with the idea that he really was Apollo, albeit an alien, who really visited Earth where the ancient Greeks viewed them as a gods. Normally I wouldn't like stuff like that (I hate "aliens built the pyramids") but it felt innovative for this era, at least to me. It was well done.
It was also really emotional, with Apollo opening up to the myth historian and how he explained how the gods disappeared and he didn't lie to her about what they really were. And she was beautiful. You really did feel his sorrow, and even Kirk was sympathetic in the end, and regretted what happened.
And Apollo shooting lightning at the Enterprise and shouting "Stop!...STOP!" was awesome.
Compared to TNG...
Now that I see how important Spock and Vulcans were to Star Trek. It's almost weird to see it NOT play a significant part in TNG. And when we did see them it was a little disappointing in my opinion. What Vulcans did we see in TNG? I never got this feeling that we were seeing this totally separate species based on total logic when they appeared in TNG. It was more like...eh, here's a Vulcan because this is Star Trek and we should probably use them once in a while. I would go as far as to say these sometimes felt like caricatures in TNG. T'Pau and Spock are different.
I will say this, when Picard was screamaing "BEDLAM! BEDLAM!!" he was channeling Mark Lenard.
But yeah, it makes the mostly absent Vulcans of TNG seem weird and had I not grown up with it, it might feel un-Star Trek-like.
Shatner's portrayal of Kirk made me forget about Picard and I was like, "damn, Kirk IS a better Captain." But then I watched "Who Watches the Watchers" and I thought, "no, it's just two different approaches to the role of Captain." Picard needed to be the anti-Kirk in many respects.
These episodes make S1 and S2 of TNG feel like a completely different franchise. Like some unconnected, little known syndicated show explorers in space.
Some episodes of TOS I can see why jocks and non-SF fans wouldn't get into it. "Devil In the Dark", while a great episode, featured a pizza rug with some guy underneath it, portraying an alien. But other episodes like "Amok Time" really transport you to an alien world with their own weird alien cultures. How the hell weren't casual tv viewers excited about this show?
And "Who Mourns for Adonais" was just a beautiful story.
I might check out others shows that were contemporaries of TOS just to put the show in greater perspective to see how audiences at the time may have perceived it. I can see why TOS got the reputation that it has for being so great.
I immediately liked the story starting off with the Enterprise crew on shore leave.
I did not like the Klingons here. What the hell happened to them? There was the charismatic charm of might equals right of Kor, and the short tempered alpha male warrior leader of Kang, both of which who look like another species.
Now we get Koloth who looks like a regular 60s, goateed dude saying cheesy bad guy stuff like "My deeeeear Captain..." and smiling like a not-at-all sneaky villain. The actor that played Korax was good tho. He had a steely expression and played the bully role well. He was like barely held in aggression, then later, alpha bully swagger.
It was nice to see life outside the Enterprise, and see a more social aspect to this universe. I like that the way the Klingons react to tribbles kind of backs up what Worf said later about tribbles being the arch enemy of the Klingons.
A "nice" episode. Nothing special but it was alright.
Amok Time
I loved the mystery of Spock suddenly becoming violent and agitated. I knew what the story was ahead of time but it still was a well-presented urgent mystery. Spock's arranged wife...she's hot. Of course he's going to get an attractive, exotic wife.
And we get to see Vulcan! The opening shots of these alien worlds are great. Almost cinematic to me. It surprised me.
Spock mentioning he's allowed to bring his friends and asks Kirk was expected. Not you McCoy. But then Spock DOES ask McCoy as well. Touching.
The entourage of Vulcans coming out looked odd and alien, and I thought it was done well for the budget and time it was done. One guy had a black mask obscuring his whole face looking like something out of Mad Max. And T'Pring asksing that Kirk fight Spock for her. She must recognize an alpha male when she sees one. Is this gonna be a love triangle?
The old lady from the Karate Kid plays T'Pau. I wasn't so sure about this but she did great.
One thing that surprised me. Vulcans are peaceful and all about logic, but it makes NO sense that they'd fight to the death over a woman or mate. Okay, yeah, it's an ancient tradition, but weren't they supposed to evolve from barbaric traditions with Surak's lessons? I can forgive this, because this is the first show and they're just trying to get a feel for these characters that they just created as they go.
I liked how they explained Kirk accepting the participation. T'Pau's influential and he doesn't want to look bad or make Starfleet look bad. But again, how logical is it to have someone accept something when they don't know the consequences are life and death? Sounds pretty barbaric to me.
The action sequence and choreography was pretty good! Kirk got sliced up right away. I didn't like the cheap-looking foil outfits for the Vulcans. But whatever. Everything else looked really good, and I'm still impressed with the marriage/pon farr procession. I felt the way Kirk and McCoy must have felt seeing Vulcan culture and tradition for the first time.
I don't see how T'pring was logical to Spock. When there's no emotion there's no motive for violence. And yet T'pring orchestrated this plot which was dependent upon violent and someone's murder. I get in-story that it was just showing that T'pring is so emotionally detached, like Vulcans but to me it doesn't fit in with the overall mythos of Vulcans. I like Spock's parting words to her gigolo.
The way it played out I really was expecting Spock to assume command and Kirk's "death" would be initially chalked up to a necessary diplomatic sacrifice. When Kirk says "I shall do neither" and immediately and seemingly unemotionally starts making preparations for Scotty to be next in command while he submits himself for arrest was great. When Kirk appears behind him and says, "Don't you think you should check with me first," Spock's exasperated and surprised reaction of "Captain!" is perfect. I don't think they needed the additional "Jim!" and big smile. It felt unnecessary. Just him saying "Captain!" you felt the surprise and happiness.
As I said before, these episodes just keep getting better and better.
Journey to Babel
Mark Lenard playing Sarek is amazing. The dialogue and performance really do sell the absolute logic of Vulcans. Even the little two-finger holding of him and Amanda, as small as it is, sells the idea of a different and odd alien culture. Is it just their version of holding hands? A symbol of unity? They don't need to explain it.
This was also a great episode and I liked how they explained Spock's damaged relationship with his father. I like the world building of the Enterprise gathering all these diplomats. I loved seeing the crowded hallways and the interactions.
Oh yeah, the silly fuzzy aliens with the My Martian antennae! I remember the species got a cemeo in TNG's "Data's Daughter" episode. I thought it looked out of place and an Easter Egg at the expense of the "realism." I believe they also got featured in ENT.
Anyway, the acting of them was good though! The one that was telling Spock that he's looking at the murder mystery too logically was great. The accent was interesting, the weight of his words made you think, yeah, this is an alien from anther world.
Who Mourns for Adonais
I remember this one as a kid. Only because I remember giant Roman or Greek gods. But that's about it.
The giant big green hand was goofy, even by 60s standards. I was going to switch to a different episode but stuck it through.
The guy playing Apollo really did look like a greek god. I thought Kirk was supposed to be considered "in shape" but this dude made Kirk look small. He also didn't play a typical maniacal evil god. Nice.
I was thinking it was going to be an alien masquerading as one of Earth's mythical gods but they actually went with the idea that he really was Apollo, albeit an alien, who really visited Earth where the ancient Greeks viewed them as a gods. Normally I wouldn't like stuff like that (I hate "aliens built the pyramids") but it felt innovative for this era, at least to me. It was well done.
It was also really emotional, with Apollo opening up to the myth historian and how he explained how the gods disappeared and he didn't lie to her about what they really were. And she was beautiful. You really did feel his sorrow, and even Kirk was sympathetic in the end, and regretted what happened.
And Apollo shooting lightning at the Enterprise and shouting "Stop!...STOP!" was awesome.
Compared to TNG...
Now that I see how important Spock and Vulcans were to Star Trek. It's almost weird to see it NOT play a significant part in TNG. And when we did see them it was a little disappointing in my opinion. What Vulcans did we see in TNG? I never got this feeling that we were seeing this totally separate species based on total logic when they appeared in TNG. It was more like...eh, here's a Vulcan because this is Star Trek and we should probably use them once in a while. I would go as far as to say these sometimes felt like caricatures in TNG. T'Pau and Spock are different.
I will say this, when Picard was screamaing "BEDLAM! BEDLAM!!" he was channeling Mark Lenard.
But yeah, it makes the mostly absent Vulcans of TNG seem weird and had I not grown up with it, it might feel un-Star Trek-like.
Shatner's portrayal of Kirk made me forget about Picard and I was like, "damn, Kirk IS a better Captain." But then I watched "Who Watches the Watchers" and I thought, "no, it's just two different approaches to the role of Captain." Picard needed to be the anti-Kirk in many respects.
These episodes make S1 and S2 of TNG feel like a completely different franchise. Like some unconnected, little known syndicated show explorers in space.
Some episodes of TOS I can see why jocks and non-SF fans wouldn't get into it. "Devil In the Dark", while a great episode, featured a pizza rug with some guy underneath it, portraying an alien. But other episodes like "Amok Time" really transport you to an alien world with their own weird alien cultures. How the hell weren't casual tv viewers excited about this show?
And "Who Mourns for Adonais" was just a beautiful story.
I might check out others shows that were contemporaries of TOS just to put the show in greater perspective to see how audiences at the time may have perceived it. I can see why TOS got the reputation that it has for being so great.
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Look dude, I know I've been up your chute through this whole thing...probably more than warranted...and I know this comment was well-intended.
But, it's another mistaken perception. I was a 3-sport athlete in HS and played Strong Safety in college. Not only was I totally into Star Trek, but a good number of my teammates were too. In fact, I went to the Ticonderoga Star Trek Tour when Shatner made his first appearance there with an old football teammate of mine and our wives.
It's BS that "jocks" only like beer and Rambo movies and beat up all the Star Trek kids or whatever. It's a fair bit of stereotyping.
Anyway, back to the thread.
Exactly. Whatever Roddenberry’s beliefs in the 80’s in the 60’s on his watch both Thanksgiving and Christmas were being celebrated.
They had a ship’s chapel also. It was non-denominational, kinda like the Unitarians, but it was there.
This was deliberate. Roddenberry wanted to avoid using TOS aliens and distance from that approach. Worf being the obvious exception but there was little focus on Klingons early on. That obviously changed over the years with the Klingons probably becoming far more explored than ever before.
So, yup, Vulcans got put by the wayside in favor of other species.
I am from the other side—a devoted TOS fan who did not initially care for TNG. For many years I was quite dismissive of TNG overall although eventually I did see the all the episodes. After seeing everything I remembered liking maybe a quarter of it and felt the rest wasn’t worth my time.
Many years later I embarked on a rewatch of TNG to challenge my long held perceptions of it. The end result of that rewatch was finding about a third of the series was quite good with some of it excellent, about a third of it was okay and the remaining third was as dull and disappointing as I remembered.
I also found I liked a good number of the Season 1 and 2 episodes contrary to what it seems many if not most TNG fans prefer. In the end the bulk of the episodes I liked were in the first four seasons. It faded out after that to while I found the odd episode in Seasons 5-7 watchable I found much of the latter seasons to be tired, poor and outright bad.
Another thing that really hit me was that despite TNG running more than twice as long as TOS it wasn’t numerically superior in terms of the number of what I saw as good to excellent episodes. That means if I took all the TNG episodes I thought were good to excellent I could cobble together about three seasons of TNG to watch.
Many years later I embarked on a rewatch of TNG to challenge my long held perceptions of it. The end result of that rewatch was finding about a third of the series was quite good with some of it excellent, about a third of it was okay and the remaining third was as dull and disappointing as I remembered.
I also found I liked a good number of the Season 1 and 2 episodes contrary to what it seems many if not most TNG fans prefer. In the end the bulk of the episodes I liked were in the first four seasons. It faded out after that to while I found the odd episode in Seasons 5-7 watchable I found much of the latter seasons to be tired, poor and outright bad.
Another thing that really hit me was that despite TNG running more than twice as long as TOS it wasn’t numerically superior in terms of the number of what I saw as good to excellent episodes. That means if I took all the TNG episodes I thought were good to excellent I could cobble together about three seasons of TNG to watch.
Try @ ing me or @Harvey if you want to catch our attention.
As to the hypnosis the idea that NBC balked is wildly overstated.
20 May 1966 NBC's Jean Messerschmidt wrote, "In accordance with our precautions to avoid hypnotizing a viewer, the act of hypnotizing must be either out of context or done off-camera." As this is a medical treatment she suggests Bones do the hypnosis unless Spock is established as being qualified. She ends by suggesting a clinical reference if some is desired.
So NBC was hardly balking, just saying not to portray actual hypnosis in a fashion where someone could actually be hypnotized.
But, hey, myths are more fun to spread than facts. *sigh*
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Good call. One of things I really liked about the 2009 movie was that it brought back the swashbuckling action-adventure vibe of the original series, which the latter-day shows had kinda lost along the way. Not that the more "cerebral" stuff isn't also an important part of the mix, but even before the 2009 movie it struck me that TREK was in danger of forgetting that it was supposed to be fun as well as high-minded. Indeed, at times, it almost seemed (to me at least) that 90s-era Trek considered cheap thrills and excitement as beneath their dignity. (I'm looking at you, VOYAGER.)
And, yes, TMP, for all its virtues, was nowhere near as exciting as, say, "Arena" or "The Doomsday Machine," and lacked that "Three Musketeers" camaraderie you mentioned.
The big indicator to me that Trek lost something in its latter incarnations is that phaser fights were rare, and very pedestrian in nature when they do happen. There's rarely the sense of the rough 'n tumble you got frequently on TOS. I was watching the Gary Mitchell episode just the other day, and Kirk gets his ass kicked. He's bloodied and beaten by the end of the episode, and even in the final scene on the bridge he's got blood on his head and his hand wrapped in a bandage. The later crews rarely found themselves in such situations, everything was always very sterile, safe and clean. The universe of TOS feels raw, dangerous, a real adventure.
Now, some look at that and feel it's unsophisticated, that most every episode has to have a fight scene, or they think the danger is melodramatic. Sometimes people brought up on modern TV can't get over that kind of 60s-ness of OS Trek. It's been my experience in fandom that there are a lot of fans who've watched every Trek except TOS, can't give it a chance, find it hokey and cheap, whatever. While I can see that, I also see it as something none of the subsequent Treks have quite managed to be: exciting.
Now, some look at that and feel it's unsophisticated, that most every episode has to have a fight scene, or they think the danger is melodramatic. Sometimes people brought up on modern TV can't get over that kind of 60s-ness of OS Trek. It's been my experience in fandom that there are a lot of fans who've watched every Trek except TOS, can't give it a chance, find it hokey and cheap, whatever. While I can see that, I also see it as something none of the subsequent Treks have quite managed to be: exciting.
Well, I can link somewhere to that rewatch thread and there is a list of the episodes I liked.Sounds like an interesting challenge.
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