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TNG Captains.

Red Ranger

Admiral
In Memoriam
People,

I'm sure that at some time, this topic has come up, but I can say I haven't seen it.

Have you noticed that most of the starship captains we saw in TNG were older people? At least late 40s/early 50s or older. I think the only younger Starfleet captains we saw, and that was briefly, was when Riker was promoted in The Best of Both Worlds, Pt. II. ; and Tryla Scott in Conspiracy.

I wonder if this was a conscious decision to further distance the show from the cliche of "youngest captain in Starfleet" that started in TOS. I do recall they kind of burst Captain Kirk's status by establishing that Captain Scott now held that record in the 24th century.

Or perhaps it was a backlash against youth culture, or a statement that in the future, ageism will matter far less than it does now.

After all, aside from Picard, we had his old friend Walker Keel, Edward Jellico, Ben Maxwell, Donald Varley of the Yamato, and DeSoto of the Hood. All these men were at least in their 50s and all were long-time experienced commanders. Even Captain Phillipa Louvois, the JAG officer, isn't supposed to be that young -- they imply, like Areel Shaw in TOS ep Court Martial, she's a contemporary of Picard's and most likely, not much younger than he is.

Of course, with the alien captains, including Rixx, it's hard to tell their ages, not knowing their lifespan or what, in Rixx's case, an older Bolian is supposed to look like.

Your thoughts?

Red Ranger
 
I suspect that in Starfleet, much like the modern day military, it takes a long time and a lot of work to make it to captain, or colonel in other branches.

Starfleet captains had to be experts in all shipboard functions. They had to be comfortable commanding several hundred to 1000+ men and women. They had to be able to asses a situation and act. Furthermore, they were essentially an ambassador in regard to new races and lifeforms. Most of this doesn't come from a book. It comes from years of "on the job training".
 
Not to mention there's difference between the rank of captain and the role of Captain. We've only seen captains as Captains in TNG, but I'm sure the little shit-trolley Mirandas and Obereths had lieutenants or lt. cmdrs as their Captains.
 
^Not bourne out when we have seen them onscreen. They've all had full captains (Saratoga x 2, Brattain, Equinox, Grissom).

Don't forget that those in the original post are all pretty big ships - you would expect more senior captains commanding them. Tryla Scott's command was a small frigate and she was correspondingly younger.
 
^Not bourne out when we have seen them onscreen. They've all had full captains (Saratoga x 2, Brattain, Equinox, Grissom).

Don't forget that those in the original post are all pretty big ships - you would expect more senior captains commanding them. Tryla Scott's command was a small frigate and she was correspondingly younger.

Huntingdon: Your first point makes sense. But about Scott's command -- a small frigate, is that a guess? I don't believe that they ever showed either her ship or Rixx's. I think Keel's ship, the Horatio, was Ambassador-class. -- RR
 
There were some younger ones, but because the lifespan is greater in the 24th century, I would say 50-60 might equate to a 35 year old today.

RAMA
 
Huntingdon: Your first point makes sense. But about Scott's command -- a small frigate, is that a guess? I don't believe that they ever showed either her ship or Rixx's. I think Keel's ship, the Horatio, was Ambassador-class. -- RR

I don't think we saw ANY of them on screen, just the debris from Keel's ship after it was destroyed. I want to say that the first time we ever saw an Ambassador class was in 'Yesterday's Enterprise.'
 
Huntingdon: Your first point makes sense. But about Scott's command -- a small frigate, is that a guess? I don't believe that they ever showed either her ship or Rixx's. I think Keel's ship, the Horatio, was Ambassador-class. -- RR

I don't think we saw ANY of them on screen, just the debris from Keel's ship after it was destroyed. I want to say that the first time we ever saw an Ambassador class was in 'Yesterday's Enterprise.'

You're right we never saw it in Conspiracy, but in the ep, Worf mentions that the Horatio is an Ambassador-class vessel. And yes, Yesterday's Enterprise was the first time we saw that type of ship on screen. -- RR
 
People,
I wonder if this was a conscious decision to further distance the show from the cliche of "youngest captain in Starfleet" that started in TOS. I do recall they kind of burst Captain Kirk's status by establishing that Captain Scott now held that record in the 24th century.

Was Kirk even called the youngest captain in Starfleet in TOS? I don't recall an episode where that's even mentioned. I thought it was a bit of fanon like Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Certainly, it was mentioned in Whitfield Making of Star Trek book that Kirk was 29 when he took command. A point that is mentioned in Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda N. McIntrye.
 
You're right we never saw it in Conspiracy, but in the ep, Worf mentions that the Horatio is an Ambassador-class vessel. And yes, Yesterday's Enterprise was the first time we saw that type of ship on screen. -- RR

Huh. Didn't remember that. Then again, it's been years since I watched Conspiracy.
 
People,
I wonder if this was a conscious decision to further distance the show from the cliche of "youngest captain in Starfleet" that started in TOS. I do recall they kind of burst Captain Kirk's status by establishing that Captain Scott now held that record in the 24th century.

Was Kirk even called the youngest captain in Starfleet in TOS? I don't recall an episode where that's even mentioned. I thought it was a bit of fanon like Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Certainly, it was mentioned in Whitfield Making of Star Trek book that Kirk was 29 when he took command. A point that is mentioned in Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda N. McIntrye.
Nah, fanon is making Tryla Scott, Uhura and Scotty's lovechild.

Not sure how "youngest captain in Starfleet" would be a cliche, since it was only applied to one character (until Capt Scott). And it was used to help define who Kirk was. Other Captains we saw in TOS seemed to be older that Kirk.
 
People,
I wonder if this was a conscious decision to further distance the show from the cliche of "youngest captain in Starfleet" that started in TOS. I do recall they kind of burst Captain Kirk's status by establishing that Captain Scott now held that record in the 24th century.

Was Kirk even called the youngest captain in Starfleet in TOS? I don't recall an episode where that's even mentioned. I thought it was a bit of fanon like Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Certainly, it was mentioned in Whitfield Making of Star Trek book that Kirk was 29 when he took command. A point that is mentioned in Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda N. McIntrye.
Nah, fanon is making Tryla Scott, Uhura and Scotty's lovechild.

Yes but was it ever stated outright in any episode of TOS was what I was asking. I don't recall off-hand. If it is an assumption made by fans without evidence from the series itself, then it could very well qualify as fanon just as the assumption that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet does.

Now, I'm not a canon head. I've always thought Kirk was among the youngest captains in Starfleet. But I just want to know if it was mentioned on-screen.
 
Was Kirk even called the youngest captain in Starfleet in TOS? I don't recall an episode where that's even mentioned. I thought it was a bit of fanon like Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Certainly, it was mentioned in Whitfield Making of Star Trek book that Kirk was 29 when he took command. A point that is mentioned in Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda N. McIntrye.
Nah, fanon is making Tryla Scott, Uhura and Scotty's lovechild.

Yes but was it ever stated outright in any episode of TOS was what I was asking. I don't recall off-hand. If it is an assumption made by fans without evidence from the series itself, then it could very well qualify as fanon just as the assumption that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet does.

Now, I'm not a canon head. I've always thought Kirk was among the youngest captains in Starfleet. But I just want to know if it was mentioned on-screen.
Not that I recall. I was just pointing out it was a character point for Kirk, not that it was canon. Also it wasn't really a cliche. (Which was directed at Red Ranger.)
 
Nah, fanon is making Tryla Scott, Uhura and Scotty's lovechild.

Yes but was it ever stated outright in any episode of TOS was what I was asking. I don't recall off-hand. If it is an assumption made by fans without evidence from the series itself, then it could very well qualify as fanon just as the assumption that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet does.

Now, I'm not a canon head. I've always thought Kirk was among the youngest captains in Starfleet. But I just want to know if it was mentioned on-screen.
Not that I recall. I was just pointing out it was a character point for Kirk, not that it was canon. Also it wasn't really a cliche. (Which was directed at Red Ranger.)

It's true I can't recall if they ever said Kirk was the youngest captain in Starfleet -- I think it was only mentioned in one novel that I recall, Enterprise: the First Adventure, by Vonda McIntyre. But never onscreen, so it's not canon, by the strict definition, more like fanon.

I used the word cliche in the sense that often, in adventure series, there is an archetypal young Turk who bucks the status quo, which Kirk seems to be -- the risk-taker who successfully rises through the ranks. I believe Horatio Hornblower, who Gene Rodenberry said Kirk was loosely based on, was of the same mold.

So that's why I thought it was refreshing that not only Picard, but the majority of starship captains on TNG, were seasoned veterans, a tribute to valuing experience over youth. With America and other Western nations facing an aging population, it's a sociological change people in the US will have to confront.

As I said, being an old fogey myself, it does my heart good. Move over, you zygotes!

Red Ranger
 
I am almost sure Kirk's youth is mentioned in the actual series. I confess that I can't bring up the episode, but I am nearly sure it's mentioned now and then, starting fairly early in the series. (Maybe in The Menagerie -- there's that part where Kirk's various awards and qualifications are stated by the official court computer?) The thing is, when it comes to TOS, I never have done much of anything except the shows themselves: I don't read the novels, I don't go to conventions, I don't hang out with other fans, none of that stuff. Until the Internet came along, allowing me to interact easily with folks like you, the only fan stuff I did was watch the show repeatedly.

And yet I have always known that Kirk was in his day the youngest person to make starship captain.

Well...how else would I have known that except from the show itself?

I realize this may not be compelling for anyone else -- I mean, for all you guys know, I'm delusional or just have a weird sense of humor. But I am 99.99% sure it was mentioned on the show, probably more than once.
 
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