• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

TMP / TOS Skin Detail

I'm not sure its fair to compare apple-store, f14, f16 etc 'sleek' design methods with what you'd use in a vacuum, where air resistance is not a factor. Form presumably derives from function, after all. There's no one who would say the Lunar Excursion Module was "streamlined" but it was as advanced as we could build at the time, and to date the only space-only space ship ever built.

More advanced techniques would probably put all servicing on the interior, not in vacuum. But, its clear the ship has to dump something, be it heat, or cherenkov radiation, or another waste product that's made up, since it literally glows. Once you are dumping that "something", you need some form of skin detail and exit hatches/heat sinks or their equivalent.

And to say it the other way: the ship needs ingress points too. Hard points for docking, intakes for deuterium and anti-matter, for some form of food product (even if elemental), air, water, and we know at least on the E-E there is coolant aboard as well.
 
I'm not sure its fair to compare apple-store, f14, f16 etc 'sleek' design methods with what you'd use in a vacuum, where air resistance is not a factor. Form presumably derives from function, after all.
Your point is correct, in that there are different design requirements in all cases. But the argument for "exposed details" is actually WORSE in a Trek-type environment than it is in, say, the F-22.
There's no one who would say the Lunar Excursion Module was "streamlined" but it was as advanced as we could build at the time, and to date the only space-only space ship ever built.
Well, that's highly debatable that it's the "most advanced we could build at the time."

A more accurate statement is that it was built the best, overall, that we could at the time given the LIMITATIONS we were working under.

There was no need for streamlining... well, that's obvious. But there's also not only no need for stealthiness, but actually a massive argument AGAINST that (they really wanted to be able to track these things by radar from earthbound dishes, remember!) The thing was designed to operate for only a very brief period of time, and the core, central issue with the design was that it had to be extremely LIGHTWEIGHT... since it, and everything else in those missions, had to be lifted into space through the use of a rocket. A single gram of additional weight would cost the space program a great deal...

So we got delicate, short-lifespan mechanisms that would do the job that they were asked to do, one time, and then never be used again. The only really robust part of the whole Apollo program was the command module, because it had to be tough enough to survive reentry.

Now... if the Apollo program engineering team hadn't been limited by the weight penalties, and had they been designing things intended to be used more than once, I strongly suspect that the approach you saw in those vehicles and systems would have been very much different.
More advanced techniques would probably put all servicing on the interior, not in vacuum.
Exactly... and that was the expressed opinion of M.J, too. He thought it was goofy to have to get into a spacesuit and go outside if you didn't absolutely have to. And I agree with his position, wholeheartedly.

In cases where something needs to be outside, it would need to be in the form of a detachable module, which can then be brought inside for servicing. In the case of the TOS "Galactica," with all those boxes all over the exterior... you might argue, for instance, that they were subsystems which could be detached, brought inside by a service drone, and then worked on in a shirtsleeves environment. In the case of Trek, everything was either behind a "window" or behind a hatch. And I think that's the best possible solution, personally.
But, its clear the ship has to dump something, be it heat, or cherenkov radiation, or another waste product that's made up, since it literally glows. Once you are dumping that "something", you need some form of skin detail and exit hatches/heat sinks or their equivalent.
No argument... and I don't think anyone else has argued against that either. Again, on the TOS 1701, we have a number of items which are clearly and unambiguously intended to be that sort of element... far more so than with many of the later "cooler" designs we've been given.
And to say it the other way: the ship needs ingress points too. Hard points for docking, intakes for deuterium and anti-matter, for some form of food product (even if elemental), air, water, and we know at least on the E-E there is coolant aboard as well.
Well, let's look at the TMP 1701, just for example. The number of exposed hardware items was very low on that ship... not really any more than seen on the TOS ship, really (look at Vektor's reworking in Trek Art for example, to see how this can be done without being contradictory with what we've seen in the past).

The Enterprise had LOTS of hatches (painted on, granted, but still clearly hatches). And I'm sure that there were umbilicals and fill-ports and so forth as well, which were simply small enough that we couldn't make them out on our 1966 TV sets.

I THINK we're in agreement here... but I'm not 100% sure what your point was, so if I'm mistaken, please feel free to expand on your point. :)
 
Hardly. The Enterprise could have a radiator the size of a penny if it is run at a sufficiently high temperature.

And, consequently, almost perfect heat stealth in the vacuum of space. That is, the heat flow could easily be channeled to a very narrow cone pointing away from the enemy, and the vacuum would prevent any telltale beam spread or backscatter.

Timo Saloniemi
I see you're both setting your unobtanium and handwavium levels on maximum... ;)
 
Oh, come on. Forward-aspect stealth, which is good enough for most militaries today, would be perfectly doable with today's technologies if we needed to build, say, a NTR-propelled space combat vehicle. All that's needed is good enough a thermal tutu around the waist of the ship.

Contrary to the atomic rocket site's oversimplifications, stealth in space is in many ways much simpler than in a dispersive atmosphere or other non-vacuum ambience.

Timo Saloniemi
 
F-22s still have "panelling" and surface detail...

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/corporate/F22_inflight.jpg

But, yeah, the panelling on the 4-foot E-D was terrible. The 6-footer, though, especially after ILM got their hands on it, was just about right.

You mean, re-got their hands on it for GEN, you know ILM built the 6ft for Farpoint, right?

They did a hell of a referb job on that sucker, looked amazing in that film.
 
F-22s still have "panelling" and surface detail...

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/corporate/F22_inflight.jpg

But, yeah, the panelling on the 4-foot E-D was terrible. The 6-footer, though, especially after ILM got their hands on it, was just about right.

You mean, re-got their hands on it for GEN, you know ILM built the 6ft for Farpoint, right?

They did a hell of a referb job on that sucker, looked amazing in that film.
Agree. The -D's not my favorite starship in the fleet, but I question that each time I watch that movie. The FX work in that movie show just what a good job proper lighting and texture can do for a design.
 
You mean, re-got their hands on it for GEN, you know ILM built the 6ft for Farpoint, right?

They did a hell of a referb job on that sucker, looked amazing in that film.
Agree. The -D's not my favorite starship in the fleet, but I question that each time I watch that movie. The FX work in that movie show just what a good job proper lighting and texture can do for a design.

And why CGI still cannot effectively replace SFX model work 100% still to this day!!!!!!!!!:scream:
 
They did a hell of a referb job on that sucker, looked amazing in that film.
Agree. The -D's not my favorite starship in the fleet, but I question that each time I watch that movie. The FX work in that movie show just what a good job proper lighting and texture can do for a design.

And why CGI still cannot effectively replace SFX model work 100% still to this day!!!!!!!!!:scream:
While I agree very much with the sentiment here (there is yet to be any CGI-ish technique that can capture the subliminal chaotic effect that REAL, physical models and light and so forth can give), I was somewhat underwhelmed by the appearance on-screen.

I think that the reason is that there were very few sharp, lingering, well-lit shots. So when I saw the movie, I just saw a more dimly lit version, on-screen, of what I'd seen for seven years on TV. I know that the model was repainted, and that the new paintjob was pretty impressive... and certainly the shots on-screen looked nice. But I could never quite see enough to be... well... "impressed?"
 
Agree. The -D's not my favorite starship in the fleet, but I question that each time I watch that movie. The FX work in that movie show just what a good job proper lighting and texture can do for a design.

And why CGI still cannot effectively replace SFX model work 100% still to this day!!!!!!!!!:scream:
While I agree very much with the sentiment here (there is yet to be any CGI-ish technique that can capture the subliminal chaotic effect that REAL, physical models and light and so forth can give), I was somewhat underwhelmed by the appearance on-screen.

I think that the reason is that there were very few sharp, lingering, well-lit shots. So when I saw the movie, I just saw a more dimly lit version, on-screen, of what I'd seen for seven years on TV. I know that the model was repainted, and that the new paintjob was pretty impressive... and certainly the shots on-screen looked nice. But I could never quite see enough to be... well... "impressed?"

Backlash against the 2001/TMP style "Starship Porn" shots...

And I hate that there is never enough glory shots of the ships anymore. :scream:
 
I don't quite buy into the prominant display of the hull plating. If you look at any relative sized contemporary naval vessel (military/ tanker) from a distance where you can comfortably take in the entire vessel in your field of vision, you can see that the hulls look fairly smooth. Especially with a new paint job. You can see some plating in some cases, though it's faint, and you don't really get the detail of the plating until you get really close.

I don't think the paint would be liquid in the 23rd century. Hell, something along the lines of a powder coating/ electroplating of some sort, would be more plausible. Or even that the plating materials would already be replicated with the colours infused or applied to the materials in question.

I think those kind of details should be left to close up views. The ship looks cleaner- more realistic (as compared to what I said about about ships). As far as cool factor goes, when did clutter ever become the definition for detail as opposed to simplicity? More of 'something' does not equate to detail in some cases.

Now I'm just rambling. It's slow at work today. We need more pictures!

Not sure what you mean by modern...but I pass by the USS RONALD REAGAN everyday, when it is in port, and the paneling is very evident...

Rob
Scorpio
 
^But I'll bet it's painted all one color, not alternating panels of azure, pea green, ghost gray and tan. :)
 
Going by the name, I'd figure the REAGAN would have a glossy black superstructure, and a lot of makeup all over the keel.
 
They did a hell of a referb job on that sucker, looked amazing in that film.
Agree. The -D's not my favorite starship in the fleet, but I question that each time I watch that movie. The FX work in that movie show just what a good job proper lighting and texture can do for a design.

And why CGI still cannot effectively replace SFX model work 100% still to this day!!!!!!!!!:scream:
I was very specifically avoiding mentioning model vs. CGI; I meant for my statement to apply to both, because it's true. Both can be shot to hell thanks to poor texture and lighting, and I've honestly seen a better ratio of good-looking CGI to bad than I have for model-work.

Honestly, I think that Gen as one of the few times that the -D looked particularly good. I think that she was either overlit, in the first few seasons, or over-detailed (and thus fake-looking) in later seasons. Gen was one of the few times that they really got her looking right.
 
Juan Bolio
I always figured the blue glow from a ship's nacelles in later Trek was Cherenkov radiation, rather than being caused by heat alone. But either is deadly and dangerous to anything near the ship - Trek has rarely if ever taken into account the implications of antimatter fuel, radiation, and faster-than-light propulsion to planetary populations...

How much danger does Cherenkov radiation cause? How much radiation is released and what wavelengths do you get?
 
^But I'll bet it's painted all one color, not alternating panels of azure, pea green, ghost gray and tan. :)
Yep... the difference in appearance are caused by the inevitable fact that no two cans of paint are ever QUITE the same color... or that some may have been painted at other times (and so some is sun-faded and weathered more than other might be) and so forth.

In general, the actual paint job of the outside of a carrier, for instance, is going to be two colors... one for "beneath the waterline" and another for "above the waterline." And even that isn't a universal rule. But they'd never... ever... paint it in "plaids." ;)
 
^But I'll bet it's painted all one color, not alternating panels of azure, pea green, ghost gray and tan. :)
Yep... the difference in appearance are caused by the inevitable fact that no two cans of paint are ever QUITE the same color... or that some may have been painted at other times (and so some is sun-faded and weathered more than other might be) and so forth.

In general, the actual paint job of the outside of a carrier, for instance, is going to be two colors... one for "beneath the waterline" and another for "above the waterline." And even that isn't a universal rule. But they'd never... ever... paint it in "plaids." ;)

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/warship_camouflage.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top