TMP, TNG starships and torpedo bays

[Wingsley]

IIRC, in "Balance of Terror" there seemed to be a suggestion of multiple weapons banks aboard Kirk's Enterprise. I'm pretty sure that vague references scattered throughout the series suggest there was more than one (or two) torpedo tube(s) and similarly there were more than the forward-facing phaser guns commonly seen firing.

Given this, and given TMP's use of secondary hull-mounted stereo torpedo bays, I'm wondering if it is still possible that the saucer could have still retained its own torpedo bay or bays in case of separation. Is that categorically ruled out, or still just another unseen possibility?

There are only two torpedo bays seen used on the TMP Enterprise, both forward-firing. Reliant appeared to to have at least two forward and at least one (or two) aft.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If you consider that "real" torpedo launchers on naval vessels come in a number of varieties, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that a moveable launcher--something the size of a minivan or something--might be stowed in one of the airlock hatches on the underside of the TMP Enterprise for various special purposes. The "main" torpedo bays would suffice for most purposes, but the additional launchers might come into play during fleet actions or full scale were where strategic ordnance may need to be deployed over interplanetary distances, for the laying of mines, planetary bombardment, etc.

Having said that, even after TWOK the deployment of torpedoes is still vaguely of the "glowing ball of energy" variety in that they require alot of power and a very accurate firing solution (with only TUC and a few instances in TNG being the rare exceptions). That being the case, it's possible that the "multiple banks" of torpedoes in TOS wasn't multiple banks as much as it was multiple capacitors/charges all being generated and fired through the same weapon port. This is at least occasionally consistent with some TNG instances, where the loss of a starboard power coupling can somehow render the photon torpedo system completely inoperable.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Having said that, even after TWOK the deployment of torpedoes is still vaguely of the "glowing ball of energy" variety

That is just the visual effect. We have seen physical torpedoes in the movies, TNG, DS9, and IIRC Voyager.

That being the case, it's possible that the "multiple banks" of torpedoes in TOS wasn't multiple banks as much as it was multiple capacitors/charges all being generated and fired through the same weapon port.

The term "tubes" is specifically used, implying a physical launcher for physical objects.

This is at least occasionally consistent with some TNG instances, where the loss of a starboard power coupling can somehow render the photon torpedo system completely inoperable.

That's an easy one: no power to arm the system or to activate the launcher.

 

[SonicRanger]

Actually, we need extra bays...

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0787.jpg

Perhaps Torpedo Bays 3 and 4 are in the saucer.

Because we know that Bays 1 and 2 are in the neck:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0251.jpg

 

[Wingsley]

Thanks for the revealing screencaps, SonicRanger.

So, it would appear that the TMP Enterprise has at least four torpedo tubes, as actual permanent bays.

The Memory Alpha article on Constitution-class starships seems to cite various TOS and movie adventures to establish that Connies had six torpedo tubes. (see article's subsection on "tactical systems".)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Having said that, even after TWOK the deployment of torpedoes is still vaguely of the "glowing ball of energy" variety

That is just the visual effect.

No, I'm talking about plot logic, the way torpedoes are actually used. They're seldom required to do any of the things that a physically cased weapon is required to do, and just as often deployed in ways that are consistent with "carefully aimed energy bolt."

Meaning the projectile is less important than the launcher itself, and for some reason a more powerful torpedo launcher seems to result in a more powerful torpedo.

 

[Ablative_Oberth]

I always took a "more powerful" launcher to mean it had more advanced capabilities.

For example... Don't take these as canon I'm just making stuff up here...

MK-1: Simple cold-gas/electromagnetic launcher for self-contained weapons. (spatial torps, Enterprise)

MK-2: Electromagnetic launcher adapted to fire self-contained weapons at low warp speed.

MK-3: Specialized subspace-railgun launcher designed to fire self-contained weapons at moderate warp-speeds

MK-4: Same as above but with dedicated cryogenic fuel handling system, antimatter storage facility and "pre-launch" hot load and preparation system. "ready fire" racks capable of holding multiple hot-loads torpedoes. Dedicated "post action torpedo deactivation" system.

MK-5: Same as above but capable of simultaneous cluster launch. "larger bore" tube.

MK-6: Same as above but modified to prep, arm and deactivate quantum warheads.

Up until late Movie Era, torpedoes had to be primed, armed and prepped then moved to the launcher, they matter and antimatter plasma from a connection on the warp-drive. More or less filled the magnetic bottles and then racked them up for launch. If the warp drive was offline, there was no way to draw for launch. Also because these weapons were more or less fancy flying magnetic bottles full of hot plasma, they had to be launched and detonated on target or otherwise ejected over the side because there was no way to bleed the plasma back into the system.

As technology progressed, it was possible to run a a fuel line to the launch bay for cryogenic matter supply and have two or there dedicated antimatter pods in the launch bay itself for arming torps. Because they were using a cold slug of matter and a cold slug of antimatter it was possible to disarm the torpedoes post-action.


Howzat? Do I win the Golden Timo Excellence In Techno-Extrapolation award for today?

 

[Santaman]

Hmm, maybe bay one and two are the usually used and being full automatic ones bay three and four being the manual loading ones, all leading to the two launchers, its always good to have a backup..

 

[blssdwlf]

The TOS torpedo must have had some steering capacity since it was able to hit Nomad well off to the side of the ship at 90,000km in "The Changeling" (despite the torpedo leaving straight ahead).

Could the refit-TMP Enterprise have a hidden torpedo tube somewhere? It's possible. Maybe not part of the standard design but could be customized (like how the Defiant and other ships have phaser weapons that aren't visible on the model).

 

[Wingsley]

Assuming that all TOS-era and post-TOS-era Connies, regardless of refit status, all had six torpedo tubes, would anyone care to extrapolate where they are located?

I suppose we can assume from TOS that there is at least one in the lower decks of the saucer, possibly one in the upper decks of the saucer, and at least one in the aft of the secondary hull (ENT's "In A Mirror, Darkly" seemed to suggest this). If any or all of these were in pairs, that would handily round out the full system of tubes. If any of these were singular, it would open the door to a single tube being located somewhere in the neck as well.

Comments?

 

[Wingsley]

I do not know how this double-post happened.

 

[blssdwlf]

On the TOS Enterprise all 6 tubes were all in the forward, ventral area of the primary hull.
When they were fired in "Elaan of Troyius" they were fired from apparently 3 different locations, 2 torpedoes each (one after the other).

The ENT Defiant apparently had an extra tube facing the rear in the back, somewhere in the dorsal area of the secondary hull.

Other than the visible 2 tubes on the TMP Enterprise, it's anyone's guess at how the other 2 tubes would be located.

 

[Wingsley]

blssdwlf,

Are you citing "Elaan of Troyus" as verification that all six of Kirk's Enterprise's torpedo tubes must be forward-facing? I suppose you could draw that conclusion, but keep in mind that both the Enterprise and the Klingon attack ship were in motion during the final engagement, and Kirk ordered a pivot at Warp factor 2 while the Klingon kept straffing, first at "better than Warp 6" and later "better than Warp 7". It could therefore be considered that Kirk's order for "all tubes to bear" could be his planned counter-attack to be launched from multiple firing arcs.

 

[blssdwlf]

On checking my DVD (not remastered) it looks and sounds like 3 volleys of 2 torpedoes in rapid succession equaling 6 fired forward from the same spot for "Elaan of Troyius". However, it could also be interpreted as only 3 torpedoes fired in total (and thus the other 3 not fired) or 3 tubes fired twice (like the rapid fire in "The Search for Spock").

It gets tricky to judge because in "Journey to Babel" Kirk orders photons 2,4 and 6 fired but the exterior shows 2 torpedoes fired before switching back to the bridge. Did one of the two that we see represent a pair of torpedoes or did we just not see the 3rd one fired because of the cut back to the bridge?

On the flip side, 2,4, and 6 could be the only forward facing tubes while the others are rear, port and starboard or all rear facing. However if that were true, then in "The Changeling" where Nomad is to the side and slightly aft of the Enterprise then it would've made more sense to have a side or aft tube fire instead of the forward one.

So back to "Elaan", IMHO, is that all 6 tubes forward fired but there is room to argue for a different arrangement

 

[Wingsley]

To me, it's more like TOS was a victim of replaying the same clip time and time to save $$$.

 

[blssdwlf]

To me, it's more like TOS was a victim of replaying the same clip time and time to save $$$.

Sure, what tv show from back then wasn't?

The torpedo fx from "Elaan" is different from "Journey to Babel" though. And slightly different from "The Changeling" (when just these three are compared together.)

 

[Wingsley]

I wonder if is possible for the Constitution-class starships to have housed even more permanent torepedo tubes than the six we've been talking about...

For me, there is a certain logic to consider. It only makes sense for there to be redundant weapons systems aboard a ship like Kirk's Enterprise. What is one of the weapons' bays were damaged or destroyed by a direct hit? And naturally, there would be (at least) forward and aft-facing tubes for both advancing and retreating fire.

Given this, I would expect a "heavy cruiser" like the Enterprise would typically have at least six torpedo bays (I would expect eight), with half facing forward, half facing aft, as well as half of them being in the saucer and half in the secondary hull. But that has as much to do with logical deduction as it does with anything we've seen in canon.

 

[Timo]

They're seldom required to do any of the things that a physically cased weapon is required to do

To be sure, there isn't much they are "required" to do overall. In TOS, one "prepares" or "arms" them and then "fires" them, which can be commented on with "torpedo away", after which there's a "hit".

In "The Changeling", though, the preparations seem not to be at odds with the routing of all power to shields, so one would think there's something different there from the process of arming the phasers.

Torpedoes before and after TOS are decidedly physical (and indeed seem to represent a continuous family, similar to the externally almost identical even if internally diverse 21in torpedoes of more than a century of real world naval history). While TOS itself lacks references to casings, the process of loading, or even the existence of tubes, it would seem out of place to think that torpedoes there weren't physical.

On the TOS Enterprise all 6 tubes were all in the forward, ventral area of the primary hull.
When they were fired in "Elaan of Troyius" they were fired from apparently 3 different locations, 2 torpedoes each (one after the other).

To expand slightly on earlier comments, when Kirk fires forward in "Balance of Terror", he specifies torpedoes 2, 4 and 6 (our only source for the idea that there'd be six tubes total, or at least six tubes minimum); when he fires forward in "The Changeling", he specifies torpedo 2. Rather good match for the idea that all the odd-numbered tubes point aft... "Elaan" then dovetails to this idea by showing three apparent points of emergence in a "full spread".

NX-01 had four forward tubes. The TMP refit had two. So I guess three for NCC-1701 before the refit seems acceptable on the aesthetic level... In technobabble terms, this might also speak of the gradually increasing capabilities of an individual tube.

...To be sure, NX-01 really had six forward tubes - four original, two added for photon torpedoes. Close-ups from the early S3 episodes support the existence of the additional tubes; later episodes do away with such finesse, but those shots aren't close-ups, allowing us to go on believing in dedicated forward photon torpedo tubes between "regulars". (Or perhaps dedicated warp tubes between sublight ones?) A dedicated aft (warp?) photon torpedo tube also appears for S3, again without contradicting anything.

Perhaps forward torpedoes (= tubes) 2, 4 and 6 are suited for warp launching (or launching against a warping target, as seen in both the episodes specifying these tube numbers) while 1, 3 and 5 are for sublight?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Wingsley]

IIRC, Kirk never uses the word "torpedo" in "Balance of Terror"; only "phasers".

 

[Timo]

Whoops, I meant to type "Journey to Babel".

In both that one, and in "The Changeling", the things being fired are identified as "torpedo X", X being the number. The word "tube" is never uttered, either there or in other episodes. Was that standard USN terminology for firing a torpedo from tube X back in WWII?

Timo Saloniemi