• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

TMP: Robert Wise's 1980/81 Edit Ideas VS. DE Version

I don't disagree. I loved TMP even when all I had was the VHS-Extended Version. The DE was even better because they went in and fixed some of the pacing issues (which was even more important then fixing a couple Effects shots IMO). Now I agree with some that maybe they cut a few bits of dialogue that could have been left in. But overall it improved what I already thought was a great movie. I was glad they fixed the 82 AU line from the original film to say a much more reasonable 2 AU (which is still huge beyond belief--though when you see the Enterprise fly over V'Ger's vessel it does give it credence, it is HUGE, but 82 AU, wouldn't that be half the solar system?).

But yes, it's not perfect. I loved the V'ger flyby on the one hand but it does look a bit ridiculous that the crew is staring dumbfounded at the screen for much of the time (though I've been a bit forgiving--I figured maybe that it was so unlike anything they've ever seen that they really were dumbfounded for a few moments, plus I guess there really wasn't much that they could do). But at the same time I was even mesmerized by some of the effects work and I think that was helped by Goldsmith's score. So while it may stretch out a bit long, I'm not sure what I'd cut out.

Some of the characterizations were a bit off too. Particularly Shatner, who was uncharacteristically subdued. Now that might sound like a good thing, but I thought he was much better in TWOK, where his personality came out a bit more without going off the deep end like I thought he did in TFF, TUC and Generations. I'd almost say Nimoy too, but one of the themes of the film was Spock finding what he needed (just like V'Ger). That he was empty to start but by the end of the film he was much more like the Spock we've come to know. McCoy was spot on though--back to his irascible self, you can always depend on DeForrest Kelley.

And the story itself was basically an extended knock off of The Changeling and to a lesser extent the Doomsday Machine. Or at least it started from that angle but took it in a different direction I thought. After all V'Ger wasn't destroyed/



That's something I always liked about Stanley Kubrick films, and the more recent Paul Thomas Anderson films. They are very meticulous about their work and they are almost every bit as important as the actors in the film. And I'm a huge Hitchcock fan for the same reason (one reason I have almost no respect for Academy Awards is the man never won Best Director--literally the best director to ever walk this Earth never won one for Best Director, you think, Rear Window, North by Northwest, Notorious, Saboteur, Psycho, The Birds, To Catch a Thief.....need I go on). Robert Wise was definitely one of those sorts of directors with his own distinct styles.



I think when you get down to it that's probably why TMP is my favorite Trek film, beyond being the movie to bring me into the fold. That it was a thoughtful science fiction film without a standard villain. When you think about it, it was the only Star Trek film to really get a big movie budget until Star Trek (2009). I think that allowed them to go deep into the sci-fi element. And TWOK picked it up from the other end, which is true. I loved TWOK too, but it doesn't capture the sci-fi element like TMP does. I can see why TWOK is usually considered more popular (and I know a lot of people who think that was the best Star Trek film). It has more action and it's more exciting. Action films are great and TWOK is a fun, entertaining film to watch. But it's not really "intelligent" in the way TMP was.

In a way it's probably why I loved Alien more than Aliens. They were both great films but they were more or less different genres (other than sharing a basic sci-fi plot). Aliens was much more an action film, like TWOK, and it was a fun, intense picture. But Alien was more sci-fi, and more horror too. Interesting also is the music composers were the same too, Goldsmith for Alien and Horner for Aliens, not sure if that had anything to do with it, but I found the parallel interesting.

I agree with most of that, but have to disagree on Alien vs Aliens. The second is actually much more SF than the first, but people don’t notice because of the action. It’s also got much more character development and subtext, but again, it isn’t thought of first because of ‘splosions. I can extend on that if you like. XD
 
I agree with most of that, but have to disagree on Alien vs Aliens. The second is actually much more SF than the first, but people don’t notice because of the action. It’s also got much more character development and subtext, but again, it isn’t thought of first because of ‘splosions. I can extend on that if you like. XD

I'll admit part of the reason I liked Alien so much is I'm also a horror movie fan, and it has a good horror sci-fi element to it too. And it takes away the old 'why don't they just leave avenue.' I love movies like the Amityville Horror but I have to admit I can't help but wonder why they just don't GET THE HELL OUT OF THE HOUSE. Can't do that in space. You're sort of stuck with the problem and have to deal with it. And the whole implanting the embryo inside your chest was pretty intense. And I liked the characterizations. These were basically just factory workers in a sense having to deal with something they probably couldn't imagine in their worse nightmare.

Aliens has some horror to it to, but there's so much action going on that you don't have much time to dwell on the horror element (though there is a great deal of suspense as well). I love some of Hudson's lines in the film though ("I don't know if you've been keeping up with current events, but we just got our asses kicked" and who can forget this exchange--Hudson to Vasquez "Have you ever been mistaken for a man", Vasquez: "No, have you?"--best come back ever, that stil gets a chuckle). And don't get me wrong, Aliens is a great movie and I love to watch it too. And what made it so cool is it was different.

And Alien has the best tagline ever :"In Space No One Can Hear You Scream" :techman:
 
I'll admit part of the reason I liked Alien so much is I'm also a horror movie fan, and it has a good horror sci-fi element to it too. And it takes away the old 'why don't they just leave avenue.' I love movies like the Amityville Horror but I have to admit I can't help but wonder why they just don't GET THE HELL OUT OF THE HOUSE. Can't do that in space. You're sort of stuck with the problem and have to deal with it. And the whole implanting the embryo inside your chest was pretty intense. And I liked the characterizations. These were basically just factory workers in a sense having to deal with something they probably couldn't imagine in their worse nightmare.

Aliens has some horror to it to, but there's so much action going on that you don't have much time to dwell on the horror element (though there is a great deal of suspense as well). I love some of Hudson's lines in the film though ("I don't know if you've been keeping up with current events, but we just got our asses kicked" and who can forget this exchange--Hudson to Vasquez "Have you ever been mistaken for a man", Vasquez: "No, have you?"--best come back ever, that stil gets a chuckle). And don't get me wrong, Aliens is a great movie and I love to watch it too. And what made it so cool is it was different.

And Alien has the best tagline ever :"In Space No One Can Hear You Scream" :techman:

I have no massive preference on the Alien films. I even like Resurrection, probably more than anything since.
But I am talking in pure elements...
Alien has:
Refinery in Space
Blue Collar workers as ship crew
Alien being making space hostile
Corporate power being so great as to rule lives
A.I/android tech hugely advanced
Cryogenic stasis for space travel
Space travel being FTL (otherwise the whole set up makes no sense...Ripley was never gonna make it home to Amanda’s birthday, and by the time they got back, earth may not even want the minerals any more. It’s implied these interstellar trips take months, so must be FTL)

Aliens has all of that, plus:
Advanced weaponry (the smart gun in particular by its day)
Terraforming technology
Colonies in Space
Power assisted Exo skeletons as human tools
FTL communications
Space stations(gateway)
Space salvage teams

It basically has more hard SF in its mix, and often with a solid plot based reason (as opposed to being Horror Film...in Space, the Nostromo serves no purpose beyond being a limiting factor as you mention, and to basically burn down at the end.)
There is no development for the characters in Alien, we don’t even get much of a back story on screen. Aliens, we have the whole Ripley is a Mother sub-plot, and the Company gets Burke as a face. So there’s just a little more there.
In visuals...well, Ridley is a very good visual director, but Cameron builds on it, and I think you get just a little more human interest and story out of a Cameron film usually over a Scott film. I think Aliens succeeded in a much more mainstream fashion for that reason...it’s the one that shaped the franchise till the attempted reboot after they drove it into the ground with 3 and later requiem.
 
The AU thing was not an "oversight". 82 was intentional. Changing it was a "fix" that accomplished nothing except change the original intent. There's a deleted line where Spock mentions V'ger has a magnetic field greater than Earth's sun, hence a "powerfield" so enormous (this how far out the heliopause is). Another change to the original intent for no good reason except it seemed more reasonable to some fanboys on the project.

The fact is, neither one really works. I mean... V'Ger was traveling at warp. Faster than anything can move in normal space. The only way the energy cloud could've stayed with it is if it were also inside the warp field, or were itself the warp field. A warp field 2 AU across is still very hard to buy, but a warp field the size of an entire star system? That's a much bigger ask.

Although... I suppose it is possible that the cloud could "travel" faster than light outside the warp field if it weren't actually a continuous physical object. I mean, if you point a powerful laser at the Moon from the Earth's surface and sweep it sideways, the spot of light on the Moon's surface can appear to move faster than light. That's because it's not a single object, but a succession of reflections of many different photons off of different parts of the Moon's surface. So a pattern can move FTL when a material object can't. Maybe V'Ger's energy cloud could be the result of some kind of energy emissions leaking through the warp field inducing luminescence in the particles of the interstellar medium as it passed. But if that were so, it's hard to buy that it could be so organized and cohesively shaped. It would probably waver and shift like an aurora as it passed through areas of different ISM density and composition. (Also, if you were using optical sensors, you wouldn't see it until it reached you, and then you'd see it moving backward as the light from further away caught up with you.)

Still, the main advantage of the reduction to 2 AU is the Enterprise's travel time through the cloud. If we assume the cloud was V'Ger's warp field, or contained inside its warp field, then it's hard to imagine how a ship could be traveling at warp relative to a surrounding warp bubble. It looked as though the ship was closing in on V'Ger at relative sublight speed. That would've taken hours if they had to cover dozens of AUs. Now, to cover a 1 AU radius -- that's 8.3 light-minutes -- in 5-6 minutes would still need to be faster than light, but the cloud was shown to be narrower at the equator, and the ship was shown to make an equatorial approach to the cloud, so maybe they only had to cover about 4 light-minutes in 5-6 minutes, and that works.



I love movies like the Amityville Horror...

I'm not a fan of that movie, because it claimed to be based on a true story. Fiction is one thing, deliberately hoaxing the gullible is another. (I feel that strongly because I used to be that gullible. As a kid, I believed all that stuff -- ghosts, UFOs, Bigfoot, you name it.)


Aliens has some horror to it to, but there's so much action going on that you don't have much time to dwell on the horror element (though there is a great deal of suspense as well).

That's the cool thing about Aliens as a sequel. They didn't just try to rehash the original and do it less well, like too many sequels do. They took the concept from a horror movie and used it to generate a movie in a completely different genre, expanding the universe in a whole new direction.

And it makes sense as a progression. A horror movie is about the fear of facing an unknown threat by yourself. If you survive and escape that threat, what do you do next? You call in the cops, or the military, so they can come back and confront it as a known threat. Now that I think about it, that's pretty much the story arc of many '50s monster movies. The first half is about the protagonists discovering a new threat and trying to figure out what it is and then trying to escape it, and the rest is about the military or the cops mobilizing in force to fight it. Alien and Aliens are basically that arc spread over 2 movies. (Much like how The Creature from the Black Lagoon and Revenge of the Creature are the arc of King Kong spread over 2 movies and 2 heroines.)
 
Last edited:
There is no development for the characters in Alien, we don’t even get much of a back story on screen. Aliens, we have the whole Ripley is a Mother sub-plot, and the Company gets Burke as a face. So there’s just a little more there.
In visuals...well, Ridley is a very good visual director, but Cameron builds on it, and I think you get just a little more human interest and story out of a Cameron film usually over a Scott film. I think Aliens succeeded in a much more mainstream fashion for that reason...it’s the one that shaped the franchise till the attempted reboot after they drove it into the ground with 3 and later requiem

In a way that's part of the charm of Alien. No backstory was really necessary. These were just average Joes going about their life. There was nothing extraordinary about them. I actually think a backstory would have taken some of that away. I think we were supposed to relate to the characters almost as a guy next door. Now Aliens was a much different film and the backstory they provided in some cases was necessary for the story they wanted to tell. But I think in Alien the lack of a backstory actually made the film better for that story.

I had read at one point Ridley Scott and James Cameron were jointly working on an Alien film but they sort of abandoned it when Alien vs Predator started. A shame because that would have been an interesting film. There are a lot of things I liked about Alien and Aliens. We'll never get to see what would have happened had we put those two together.

For me I really did like both movies a lot. They were both very well done, and I think Scott and Cameron both did an excellent job with the story each was trying to tell and what they wanted to emphasize. I just liked Alien a little bit more.

I'm not a fan of that movie, because it claimed to be based on a true story. Fiction is one thing, deliberately hoaxing the gullible is another.

Yeah, I can see that. By the time I saw it was debunked as a true story, so I guess I saw it with a different perspective. I'm sort of ashamed to say but I even like the sorta prequel "Amityville II: The Posession". I thought it got the creepiness and scares right, though pretty much the enitre 2nd half was a rip off of The Exorcist.

The fact is, neither one really works. I mean... V'Ger was traveling at warp. Faster than anything can move in normal space. The only way the energy cloud could've stayed with it is if it were also inside the warp field, or were itself the warp field. A warp field 2 AU across is still very hard to buy, but a warp field the size of an entire star system?

Yeah, once I learned what an AU was I thought there was no way it could be 82 AU's in diameter. It would have swallowed up most of the solar system just trying to get to Earth. And the scale was all wrong for that. Even 2 AU's seems almost impossibly large. But if it were 82 AU's when the Enterprise approached it, the ship would have looked like a microbe next to the cloud. It that was what the original writers intended, then they didn't really think it through to well.
 
In a way that's part of the charm of Alien. No backstory was really necessary. These were just average Joes going about their life. There was nothing extraordinary about them. I actually think a backstory would have taken some of that away. I think we were supposed to relate to the characters almost as a guy next door. Now Aliens was a much different film and the backstory they provided in some cases was necessary for the story they wanted to tell. But I think in Alien the lack of a backstory actually made the film better for that story.

I had read at one point Ridley Scott and James Cameron were jointly working on an Alien film but they sort of abandoned it when Alien vs Predator started. A shame because that would have been an interesting film. There are a lot of things I liked about Alien and Aliens. We'll never get to see what would have happened had we put those two together.

For me I really did like both movies a lot. They were both very well done, and I think Scott and Cameron both did an excellent job with the story each was trying to tell and what they wanted to emphasize. I just liked Alien a little bit more.



Yeah, I can see that. By the time I saw it was debunked as a true story, so I guess I saw it with a different perspective. I'm sort of ashamed to say but I even like the sorta prequel "Amityville II: The Posession". I thought it got the creepiness and scares right, though pretty much the enitre 2nd half was a rip off of The Exorcist.



Yeah, once I learned what an AU was I thought there was no way it could be 82 AU's in diameter. It would have swallowed up most of the solar system just trying to get to Earth. And the scale was all wrong for that. Even 2 AU's seems almost impossibly large. But if it were 82 AU's when the Enterprise approached it, the ship would have looked like a microbe next to the cloud. It that was what the original writers intended, then they didn't really think it through to well.

Isn’t there a line about vgers cloud dissipating as it approached though?
I like massive size...ironically it makes it more nautical, like a fog bank rolling in.
 
Isn’t there a line about vgers cloud dissipating as it approached though?
I like massive size...ironically it makes it more nautical, like a fog bank rolling in.

Yeah. It was dissipating rapidly as it was approaching Earth. However a cloud that was 82 AUs would still swallow up most of the solar system before it ever got near Earth.

And 2 AU's is still massively large. Basically double the size of the Moon's orbit around the Earth, so it's more than 3 times the size of Earth. I'd say that's still incredibly, almost impossible massive. And visualizing the scale of the Enterprise against the cloud and the ship inside, it seems to me to make more sense.
 
And 2 AU's is still massively large. Basically double the size of the Moon's orbit around the Earth, so it's more than 3 times the size of Earth. I'd say that's still incredibly, almost impossible massive.

Oh, no, it's way bigger than that. An AU is the distance from the Earth to the Sun. So 2 AUs is the entire diameter of the Earth's orbit. That's about 390 times the size of the Moon's orbit around Earth, and it's 23,460 times the diameter of the Earth. The Moon's orbit around the Earth is 60 times the diameter of the Earth itself.
 
82 AUs on an interplanetary scale is still very "near" Earth. So if the power field's interaction with interstellar debris (which is what caused the "cloud") dissipated as the object slowed down then the cloud would be gone when it got inside the limits of the solar system.

The one change in the DE that always made me scratch my head (or howl in helpless rage, depending on my mood) was adding TNG / TOS sound effects to the bridge. (It's essentially the Enterprise B, isn't it?) If they were going to cannibalize another feature why didn't they use the sounds from The Wrath of Khan which were much more in keeping with TMP.

It's a laudable effort to be sure. I'd take 60% of the DE and 35% of the original. And 5% of my own stuff. (It would be like killing kittens, but I'd shorten the Enterprise tour. Somehow.)

Oh, and as for animating by two's for the wing walk: there is a shot in the Spock Walk that was animated by twos back in 1979. So it certainly wasn't beneath them.
 
82 AUs on an interplanetary scale is still very "near" Earth. So if the power field's interaction with interstellar debris (which is what caused the "cloud") dissipated as the object slowed down then the cloud would be gone when it got inside the limits of the solar system.

I dunno, there's still a fair amount of gas density inside the Solar System, from the solar wind itself. I'm not sure how its density relates to the ISM, but it's not a pure vacuum by any means.

If the energy cloud was an artifact of V'Ger's warp field, it stands to reason that it would dissipate when V'Ger dropped to impulse.


The one change in the DE that always made me scratch my head (or howl in helpless rage, depending on my mood) was adding TNG / TOS sound effects to the bridge. (It's essentially the Enterprise B, isn't it?) If they were going to cannibalize another feature why didn't they use the sounds from The Wrath of Khan which were much more in keeping with TMP.

I liked that change. There's so little continuity of design between TOS and TMP, and it's hard to believe every last piece of technology would've been changed so completely at the same time. Having the audio ambience as a unifying element helps bridge the discontinuity between the two.
 
I dunno, there's still a fair amount of gas density inside the Solar System, from the solar wind itself. I'm not sure how its density relates to the ISM, but it's not a pure vacuum by any means.

If the energy cloud was an artifact of V'Ger's warp field, it stands to reason that it would dissipate when V'Ger dropped to impulse.




I liked that change. There's so little continuity of design between TOS and TMP, and it's hard to believe every last piece of technology would've been changed so completely at the same time. Having the audio ambience as a unifying element helps bridge the discontinuity between the two.

V’ger basically didn’t bother with a navigational deflector, so I guess a huge bunch of junk stands up well scientifically thinking (isn’t it one of the problems with the cubiere drive or whatever it’s called?)
I also think it works with other aspects of v’ger...first the huge cloud...then the smaller energy cloud, then the structure itself, and at the heart, the tiny voyager probe, and then smaller than that is the equipment that constitutes v’gers space for his original, tiny, program. It’s a narrative intent that somehow gets cast by the wayside (much like the biblical elements.)
 
Oh, no, it's way bigger than that. An AU is the distance from the Earth to the Sun. So 2 AUs is the entire diameter of the Earth's orbit. That's about 390 times the size of the Moon's orbit around Earth, and it's 23,460 times the diameter of the Earth. The Moon's orbit around the Earth is 60 times the diameter of the Earth itself.

Oops. My bad. Mixed up the Sun and Moon. 82 AU's would, at least to me, be impossibly large then. Even 2 AU's on that scale would be ridiculously large, though they do note how powerful it is so I can go with it. But 82 times the orbit of the Earth in size. They'd probably be able to see that with the naked eye before it even got close to the solar system I would think, and the Enterprise wouldn't even be able to be seen at that scale.

I liked that change. There's so little continuity of design between TOS and TMP, and it's hard to believe every last piece of technology would've been changed so completely at the same time. Having the audio ambience as a unifying element helps bridge the discontinuity between the two.

Yeah, I liked that myself. It reminded me more of the original series (I don't recall any TNG effects, though maybe I missed something). But it was a nice homage to the original series. And weren't the original effects already consistent with TWOK (or I guess it's more correct to say the other way around--if I remember correctly TWOK reused many of the sound effects from TMP).
 
They'd probably be able to see that with the naked eye before it even got close to the solar system I would think

Not if it's traveling faster than light. Like I said, they'd see it first when it arrived, and then would see it appearing to move backward as the light from further away caught up with them.


if I remember correctly TWOK reused many of the sound effects from TMP

I don't recall that being the case. Both the Enterprise and the Reliant had their own distinct bridge ambiences, and I don't think either was based on TOS sound effects.
 
Not if it's traveling faster than light. Like I said, they'd see it first when it arrived, and then would see it appearing to move backward as the light from further away caught up with them.




I don't recall that being the case. Both the Enterprise and the Reliant had their own distinct bridge ambiences, and I don't think either was based on TOS sound effects.

That would blow their mind. It's arriving moving backwareds. Sort of like a galactic moonwalk :nyah:. If I remember the novel correctly V'Ger was always moving at warp speed until it got close to Earth and the Enterprise was therefore also moving at warp (though within the vessel, I assumed the Enterprise was within the vessels warp field and was not using it's own warp engines while inside--I figured that's why the dialogue always stated 'relative' position because they were also moving).

What I meant was that I thought TWOK reused many of the same sound effects from the original theatrical version of TMP. But it's been a while since I watched the theatrical version so I could be mistaken.
 
The tricky thing about TMP is that the characters are supposed to be out of character. They've lost something from their separation and need to be reunited to find it again. So they don't really get back to their old selves (or something better, in Spock's case) until the final act of the film. Which does work in-story, but I understand why it makes it hard for many fans to relate to the characters.
This I think is the biggest problem I have with the film today - Kirk and Spock are light years from the characters they were in TOS. One or the other being quite different from who they were on the show might be fine, but both of them being that off is very distancing for the viewer. Thank God McCoy is more or less the same.

My other big problem with the story is that our heroes are very reactive rather than active for all of it. About the only definitive action our heroes take is Spock's spacewalk & mind meld -- Everything else is in reaction to something that V'Ger did first. Again, not much like what they would've done on TOS or in the subsequent movies. Halfway through, you really want to see Kirk get back to his old self more and take the bull by the horns.
 
Oh, and as for animating by two's for the wing walk: there is a shot in the Spock Walk that was animated by twos back in 1979. So it certainly wasn't beneath them.
No. They step printed that shot to slow it down and it looks like ass.
 
And the story itself was basically an extended knock off of The Changeling and to a lesser extent the Doomsday Machine. Or at least it started from that angle but took it in a different direction I thought.

I think it's weird no one ever accuses TMP of being a remake of "The Corbomite Maneuver." That's the one I'd cite as having the most similarities. And there's an argument that a series being adapted into a movie should probably have an element of "greatest hits" to it.
 
Those are all very superficial similarities except for "The Changeling". Big alien ships posing a threat is just Moby Dick in space. You want to talk copied premises and TMP? Hoo, boy, have Harvey and I got a surprise for you coming up... :D
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top