TMP: Kirk's Journey to the Ship

[J.T.B.]

Plus Robert Wise had his biggest successes as a director of musicals, so he was comfortable with that kind of thing.

I don't think this is entirely fair, as it seems to belittle the bulk of Wise's career as director, beginning in the 1940s.

Huh? It's just a fact. The Sound of Music was, by far, the most financially successful film of the 1960s. It ranks as the third highest-grossing movie box office of all time in adjusted dollars. West Side Story was the biggest hit of 1961, had wide critical acclaim and won ten Academy Awards. Both were awarded Best Picture, and got Wise his two directing Oscars.

And as an artist, I'm just blown away at how the ENTERPRISE model is quite simply, a work of art. The Art Deco influences are very pronounced and appropriate. The amount of detail and that pearlescent finish to enhance the "self-lighting" is impressive. Later ENTERPRISE designs seemed more concerned with faux-engineering and they never really had that kind of artistry in mind.

Agreed. And that model is unlike a lot of movie spaceship designs because it looks interesting from so many different angles. For some reason, the shots from below aft, looking at the bottom of the shuttle bay counter stern with the graceful sweep of the nacelle pylons above and the saucer more distant, always gave the ship the most "physical presence" for me.

 

[Smellmet]

I much prefer the image of starships moving at the speed of ocean galleons, over them zipping around like speedboats or jet aircraft.

I do too, It helps to project the sheer size of these beasts

 

[EnriqueH]

I've never had a problem with TWOK's pacing either. I don't know where Christopher is getting that from. In fact, that's the first time I ever heard someone criticizing the pacing in TWOK in favor of the pacing in TMP. Actually, it's the first time I've heard anyone criticizing TWOK's pacing period.

 

[Christopher]

I much prefer the image of starships moving at the speed of ocean galleons, over them zipping around like speedboats or jet aircraft.

Both are equally unrealistic. Space is huge. In order to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time, spaceships would have to go hundreds or thousands of times faster than any vehicular motion we're accustomed to on Earth. And that means it'd be risky to get too close. The only time you could expect to see two ships within naked-eye visual range of each other is when they're about to dock with each other. TOS's space battles, where you never saw the two ships in the same shot, were enormously more realistic than those made possible by more sophisticated special effects.

I've never had a problem with TWOK's pacing either. I don't know where Christopher is getting that from. In fact, that's the first time I ever heard someone criticizing the pacing in TWOK in favor of the pacing in TMP. Actually, it's the first time I've heard anyone criticizing TWOK's pacing period.

Enjoyment is subjective. And I've never been troubled by the ways in which I do not conform to the majority's thinking. Heck, if I just shared everyone else's opinion on the movie, there'd be no point in expressing it. Conversation is about sharing a diversity of viewpoints.

 

[EnriqueH]

Enjoyment is subjective. And I've never been troubled by the ways in which I do not conform to the majority's thinking.

Who said anything about "conforming to the majority's thinking"?

I'm simply confused by your statement that TWOK's pacing is sluggish.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I never found TWOK's pacing sluggish. On the other hand, I do agree with previous comments that TMP's pacing needed picking up.

When I was growing up and I told people around my age (e.g. middle schoolers, high schoolers) that I was into "Star Trek," I would get some comments that it was 'boring.' Now, as one who was more into the classic series than the movies, I wondered where the 'boring' came from. (The best episodes of the classic series are paced pretty well, and there is enough action to keep a casual viewer interested, I think). It wasn't until years later did I understood where so many casual moviegoers - at the time - got the idea that Trek overall was 'boring.' (It was - what some were calling it - the 'motionless' picture!)

 

[BillJ]

I never found TWOK's pacing sluggish. On the other hand, I do agree with previous comments that TMP's pacing needed picking up.

I think the pacing of both films was appropriate for the story each was trying to tell.

 

[Smellmet]

Agreed, there's some bits of TMP that drag a little, the V'Ger flyby being the main culprit, but I don't really care as it fits with the style and tone of the movie, and the Directors Edition that I watched recently tightens it all up nicely without spoiling the movie at all. In fact I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the film on a recent rewatch, it was quite refreshing to see Trek done seriously for a change. I actually watched it back to back with TWOK last weekend, and I enjoyed it every bit as much.

I think this film is massively underappreciated and underrated to be honest. I think it's a fabulous sci-fi epic the likes of which we'll probably never see again.

 

[Timewalker]

Watching TMP on TV the other day, I had a thought about why some people, myself included, may think the Enterprise fly-by is too slow and kills the momentum of the movie.

The fans who saw the movie in the theater when it came out were anxious to see the ship on the big screen, true, but it was also the first time they were exposed to Jerry Goldsmith's wonderful Star Trek theme. For decades, fans have heard that music more frequently as the main title theme for TNG, and many of them saw TNG before TMP. Watching the Enterprise fly-by with that music may bring to mind the sensibilities of that show and its pacing. At the very least, it can feel recycled, even though TMP came out first.

I'll probably always have the view that that scene drags on too long and is trying too hard to be like 2001, but I wonder if I would think the scene more majestic if I saw it at its moment in time.

Definitely. It loses so much of its emotional impact on TV, both visually and with the music.

 

[Smellmet]

Any film will never be as good on TV as the big screen unless you have a ridiculous set up. TMP last weekend on my 42" Phillips (only 720p) with my Sony 5.1 system cranked up rocked, I had a great time, and my setup is 8 years old and a generation out of date.

Some of the effects on the movie are in a poor resolution still - the klingon rear torpedo shots look dreadful still and should have been redone, but most of the the rest of looked excellent, particularly engineering - that looked so big, shiny and new. It was the best rewatch I'd had since seeing it in 1979.

 

[Tosk]

I much prefer the image of starships moving at the speed of ocean galleons, over them zipping around like speedboats or jet aircraft.

Same. Depending on size, of course. Like the battle in The Jem'Hadar. The Odyssey making sweeping large turns while the runabouts zip and weave around. Maybe it's not realistic, but I'm not looking for it to be a documentary.

 

[Christopher]

Well, the truth is that I usually find space battles tedious regardless of how the ships are moving. The only Trek space battle that ever engaged me was the climactic one in Nemesis, because it was an elaborate chess match and a battle of wills and intellects. I'm not moved (in any positive way) by gun battles and explosions, but I'm engaged by strategy and problem-solving.

 

[EnriqueH]

That's funny, because Nemesis was the only space battle I found totally boring.

Eh, writers.

We love being iconoclastic.

 

[Smellmet]

Proof you can't please everyone. I love the battle in Nemesis. I thought it was great to see what the Enterprise E could really do, despite it being matched against the Big Black Baddie Ship of the week

 

[2takesfrakes]

I found some of the battle sequences in The Wrath of Khan to be "sluggish," myself. When the ENTERPRISE flew through V'Ger in TMP, at least, there were totally new, bizarre, unrelated visuals, so there was that unexpectedness to look forward to and take our time looking at. In TWoK's nebula, there's nothing there but a pink and blue swirly background, the ENTERPRISE & the RELIANT. And that's it. In fact, information in this cloud was so otherewise unimportant and uninteresting, frankly, that seeing it on their respective viewscreens could be covered over with thick static, much of the time.

Yes, I know they were playing "Cat & Mouse" together, but all we're waiting for is who's going to cripple whose ship and there was never really going to be any "surpise" about that, now was there? So get on with it, already! Watching Kirk and Khan staring at static ... waiting ... waiting ... The "surprise" as far - as the battles went - was Kirk's surrender. Kirk, the hero of the entire galaxy falls off of his pedestal, because he's not as sharp as he used to be. Uhura's gentle pleading with, "... Admiral," at that moment, just captured that so well. The pacing from when RELIANT enters the sector to Scotty's bringing his nephew to the bridge was alright. The "Cat & Mouse" game offered very little of interest, though - until Spock plays 'martyr' after the battle itself was won. It really could do with a lot of tightening.

 

[Melakon]

I saw TMP in the theater when it came out, and went 5 times. To me, it felt like Kirk's trip to the Enterprise was about a minute longer than it needed to be. Around viewing #4 the journey through V'Ger started to drag a bit. But I understand that due to the deadline on the final print, Robert Wise used just about every useable piece of effects footage he had available due to studio pressure.

 

[Christopher]

Proof you can't please everyone. I love the battle in Nemesis. I thought it was great to see what the Enterprise E could really do, despite it being matched against the Big Black Baddie Ship of the week

I was more interested in what the captains did, the battle of wits between two highly intelligent problem-solvers, than what the ships did.

But I understand that due to the deadline on the final print, Robert Wise used just about every useable piece of effects footage he had available due to studio pressure.

More or less. Rather, the idea was to start with a rough cut that included all the effects footage that had been shot up to that point, just to see all of what was there, and then go through it and decide what parts of it to keep and what parts to trim, and feel out what the best pacing would be for the final version of the scenes, just how much trimming worked best. But the locked-in release date forced Wise to distribute the film before he was able to do that final edit. (So it also went out with some FX shots missing and with a temporary sound-effects mix.) Wise tried to talk Paramount into letting him complete the edit after release and then replace the rough cut in the theaters with a more polished cut a few weeks later (since movies generally stayed in release for months back then), but they never let him do that until 22 years later.

 

[EnriqueH]

I found some of the battle sequences in The Wrath of Khan to be "sluggish," myself. When the ENTERPRISE flew through V'Ger in TMP, at least, there were totally new, bizarre, unrelated visuals, so there was that unexpectedness to look forward to and take our time looking at. In TWoK's nebula, there's nothing there but a pink and blue swirly background, the ENTERPRISE & the RELIANT. And that's it. In fact, information in this cloud was so otherewise unimportant and uninteresting, frankly, that seeing it on their respective viewscreens could be covered over with thick static, much of the time.

Yes, I know they were playing "Cat & Mouse" together, but all we're waiting for is who's going to cripple whose ship and there was never really going to be any "surpise" about that, now was there? So get on with it, already! Watching Kirk and Khan staring at static ... waiting ... waiting ... The "surprise" as far - as the battles went - was Kirk's surrender. Kirk, the hero of the entire galaxy falls off of his pedestal, because he's not as sharp as he used to be. Uhura's gentle pleading with, "... Admiral," at that moment, just captured that so well. The pacing from when RELIANT enters the sector to Scotty's bringing his nephew to the bridge was alright. The "Cat & Mouse" game offered very little of interest, though - until Spock plays 'martyr' after the battle itself was won. It really could do with a lot of tightening.

I've always loved the Mutara battle:


eeeeeeeeeeeeeRRRRRAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

"EVASIVE STARBOARD!!!!"


PSHHHHHHHHHSHSHSSHSHH!!!!!!!

::PHOTON TUBE GOES UP::

AHHH!!

"FIRE!!!!

PSSSSSHHHHSHSHSHSHSH!!!

You know what the problem is? You guys have seen these movies far too many times. If I pull a Captain Christopher on you back to 1982 ,you'd guys would be overwhelmed with excitement.


Or how about:

FULL EEEMPULSE POOOOWER!!!!

NO, SIR! YOU HAVE GENESIS! YOU CAN HAVE WHATEVER YOU..."

"FULL POWER! DAMN YOU!"

HEAD THRASH

 

[Melakon]

I still feel sorry for Judson Scott, with his agent screwing him out of getting any billing for the picture.

 

[mos6507]

The world pre-VCRs was different. You just didn't get to experience that spectacle until the film was showing in your area. That's why Star Wars enjoyed several revivals after 1977.

I remember going to a double-feature of TMP and Khan around 1983 or so and even then I still felt a sense of majesty with TMP.

There's just something about delayed gratification, of waiting for something to either be in the theaters or the ABC movie of the week showing that makes you appreciate things more rather than today when you can pop in a blu-ray or catch something on the DVR or stream it on demand via the web.

There is also something to being forced to sit still in your damn seats and let the film dictate the pacing rather than being able to FF to the juicy bits. It's more like taking in a live performance, and so much of TMP feels like going to the symphony (complete with the Ilia overture). There is an old-fashioned suit-and-tie formality to the entire thing that is totally lacking in today's popcorn spectacles. Also, at least the first few films sometimes offered programs. I remember getting one for Search for Spock.

Really, we're all much too spoiled these days to the point of desensitization and ADD.