TMP is the best film. It is not 'tedious' at all

[Jadeb]

I admire its ambitions, and I can respect the effort in genuinely making the first appearance Trek on the big screen feel truly cinematic no matter how difficult. However as someone who most enjoyed the crew dynamics and character exploration on the show it feels like those elements just drown in the focus on large scale spectacle.

I've heard certain fans claim that TMP is the explorative spirit from TOS best manifest, but so much of the warmth and energy of the latter just feels lacking for much of the movie. The sickbay scene between Kirk and Spock is one of the few exceptions, and I know some will say its all the more meaningful because there's a coldness in the film prior. The experience of that though doesn't make me appreciate the scene more as much as it has me wishing the rest of the film had even a small sense of those character dimensions to it.

For my money the greatest strength and weakness of the Motion Picture is its drift from The Original Series. Its handling of the human elements the latter excelled at are either undercooked or clunky, yet it does reach for a certain existential depth in a way the show could (and some would argue would) never do. Regardless of whether it stuck the landing in what's trying, you certainly can't accuse it of playing it safe.

I love TMP, but it’s not an easy film to love. It foregrounds pain and loss — Kirk and his command, Spock and his emotional journey — instead of giving us characters that are likable in the now. Our reward is supposed to come at the end, when we finally get the cozy crew we expected all along. In that sense, it’s more about the destination than the journey, which can make it feel cold while we sit through all the big-budget special effects.

In many ways it parallels Discovery’s approach, especially in the first season, where we endure the many miseries of Burnham and lots of CGI to finally get the optimistic Trek speech at the end. I’m not convinced it’s a structure that works particularly well for Star Trek. At least TMP only takes 2.5 hours to get to its destination, instead of 12 or 13.

 

[Mojochi]

Basic AF, characterless Trek story, hinging on a paltry single gimmick payoff, padded with an obscene amount of sci-fi FX porn imho

 

[Pauln6]

I see no reason why not to like both...

In fairness, Star Wars has way better action figures.

 

[Pauln6]

I'm still working on my fan edit. I love the movie but when I'm scrolling back and forth to check my edits, I am still surprised at how far into the movie is the cloud scene. That's a lot of padding to get there! They really needed some extra character moments up to that point.

The Memory Wall could have been used to add a bit of action but the level of CGI required to achieve that based on the rough footage on the DVD is way beyond my skill.

 

[Maurice]

The Memory Wall could have been used to add a bit of action but the level of CGI required to achieve that based on the rough footage on the DVD is way beyond my skill.

What action? Kirk playing Raquel Welch in the antibodies scene from Fantastic Voyage followed by Spock vaporizing them? Spock's rocket ride through all the fantastic imagery is way more exciting than the talk-fest that it replaced.

 

[Pauln6]

What action? Kirk playing Raquel Welch in the antibodies scene from Fantastic Voyage followed by Spock vaporizing them? Spock's rocket ride through all the fantastic imagery is way more exciting than the talk-fest that it replaced.

Spock's solo journey is much better than the original scripted version but if a few other characters had followed, I was thinking something more like the early scenes in Alien than Fantastic Journey with Spock's mind meld serving as the distraction allowing others to escape.

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

I love TMP, but it’s not an easy film to love. It foregrounds pain and loss — Kirk and his command, Spock and his emotional journey — instead of giving us characters that are likable in the now. Our reward is supposed to come at the end, when we finally get the cozy crew we expected all along. In that sense, it’s more about the destination than the journey, which can make it feel cold while we sit through all the big-budget special effects.

In many ways it parallels Discovery’s approach, especially in the first season, where we endure the many miseries of Burnham and lots of CGI to finally get the optimistic Trek speech at the end. I’m not convinced it’s a structure that works particularly well for Star Trek. At least TMP only takes 2.5 hours to get to its destination, instead of 12 or 13.

I think for me its that while either a slower/ponderous pace or a more sterile feel with the crew can work for a Trek movie, combining the two as TMP does though is a bit much to take for so long even with the rich character elements at the end as a payoff. Its fine to instill a sense of genuine awe/scale via many shots of V'ger and people's reaction to it, just as there's value in hitting an audience with a crew that's out of sync with their dynamics and finally delivering that emotional reconnection in the third act. Having both so dominant for so much of the running time though almost feels suffocating, though I'll fully admit that's largely up to my preferences as a fan.

To make an odd juxtaposition, Yesterday's Enterprise really leans into the the darker and harsher military ship aesthetic for most of the episode and I'll admit it actually is affecting to see one my favorite comfortable settings like TNG Enterprise as an almost sinister war vessel. But the pace of the story allows those stark visuals to hit hard while not being excessive, and helps make the altered dynamics with the characters contrasting in its tone without eventually becoming alienating.

Not the most natural of comparisons I know, but as its execution as a Trek plot explains why TMP doesn't lend itself to as much rewatchability for me. Yesterday's Enterprise had one major change in its narrative language and was effective because of it. The Motion Picture has a pair of significant shifts in its presentation of story from TOS, and the two on top of each other just feels like it makes it all the harder to enjoy either.

 

[Maurice]

Spock's solo journey is much better than the original scripted version but if a few other characters had followed, I was thinking something more like the early scenes in Alien than Fantastic Journey with Spock's mind meld serving as the distraction allowing others to escape.

Would have slowed the film down for no benefit.

 

[publiusr]

Now, I can see a deep fake remembrance scene showing some of the lost footage as what happened after Kirk rescued Spock...

 

[MakeshiftPython]

It'll always be the 2001 wannabe for me.

 

[Pauln6]

Would have slowed the film down for no benefit.

Certainly it would not have been a scene that drove the plot beyond seeding the clues about V'Ger's nature that will shortly be confirmed by Spock in any event.

That said, longer does not automatically mean slower, as we can see from The DE. I would have enjoyed seeing a landing party of Kirk, McCoy, Uhura, Chekov, and Ensign [insert name of ensign originally killed by the probe]. Taking the sperm and egg allegory seriously, only one of a number of sperm reaches the egg. Spock was just a stronger swimmer.

 

[Maurice]

Certainly it would not have been a scene that drove the plot beyond seeding the clues about V'Ger's nature that will shortly be confirmed by Spock in any event.

That said, longer does not automatically mean slower, as we can see from The DE. I would have enjoyed seeing a landing party of Kirk, McCoy, Uhura, Chekov, and Ensign [insert name of ensign originally killed by the probe]. Taking the sperm and egg allegory seriously, only one of a number of sperm reaches the egg. Spock was just a stronger swimmer.

The whole point of the Spock walk was to pick up the pace of the film. The sperm analogy is silly because this is not some race to get to V'ger, it's Spock's arc driving him to risk death to get answers and Kirk going after him.

 

[Pauln6]

The whole point of the Spock walk was to pick up the pace of the film. The sperm analogy is silly because this is not some race to get to V'ger, it's Spock's arc driving him to risk death to get answers and Kirk going after him.

I'd never thought of it as a sperm analogy until I saw a review pointing out the many MANY metaphors throughout the movie and I remembered that this was Gene Roddenberry. And now I can't unsee it. But of course it is eventually Decker that 'fertilises' V'Ger so Spock's mind meld was firing blanks.

In terms of pacing, I agree that a spacewalk by Kirk on his own would add nothing. Another chance for Kirk and McCoy to have some dialogue would have been great though.

 

[ChallengerHK]

The sperm analogy is silly because this is not some race to get to V'ger, it's Spock's arc driving him to risk death to get answers and Kirk going after him.

I'm not convinced about the sperm analogy, but I wouldn't call it silly. Your explanation ignores V'Ger's motivation in allowing Spock to enter and approach, and providing the Illia effigy to approach, potentially as a means of achieving the joining that is it's goal.

I for one have always view that burst of linear energy at the end, after Decker achieves the goal of joining with V'Ger, as a pseudo-sexual release. My 18 year old self and my friend who accompanied me found the idea very humorous on opening night.

 

[Maurice]

The "orifice" and "penetrate" thing is what make the sperm analogy, but that ignores that my point wasn't about sperm per se it's the silly idea of it being a "race" given the character motivations in the film. There's a forest beyond that tree.

 

[Pauln6]

The "orifice" and "penetrate" thing is what make the sperm analogy, but that ignores that my point wasn't about sperm per se it's the silly idea of it being a "race" given the character motivations in the film. There's a forest beyond that tree.

Symbolism is not meant to override the literal story on the screen (unless you are watching some weird ass movie like the Fountain) but McCoy is pretty explicit in his view that he'd just delivered a baby and we all know how babies are made. I refer, of course, to the cloning vats of Arcturus IV.

 

[Maurice]

Still missing the forest.

 

[Cryogenic]

First of all, to address the thread topic -- YES, I ADORE TMP!!! (Still).

It's such a finely crafted film. The cinematography, the effects, the pacing, the music -- and the whole balletic and exploratory "emergent" feel of the film. It's a genuine cinematic experience. It feels big and weighty, and also aptly ponderous, plush, elegant, refined... and yes... even a bit cheesy and "on the nose" (and very TOS) when it needs to be.

As Nacluv put it in a TWOK thread in 2012 (clearly TPM and TWOK are compared like estranged cousins all the time), TMP is laden with opulent conceptuality. I love that term; really captures something. Indeed, I think TMP is the *only* Trek movie with any real opulence, and the only one dealing in big concepts and actually being serious about it.

Anyway, zooming right into an amusing sidebar here:

Taking the sperm and egg allegory seriously, only one of a number of sperm reaches the egg. Spock was just a stronger swimmer.

Well, V'Ger had been specifically "calling" to Spock -- in some abstract, metaphysical sense -- ever since we were (re-)introduced to Spock on Vulcan undergoing the Kolinahr. We are specifically told, by the Vulcan High Priestess, that it "touches [his] human blood." Provocative wording. An even more poetic phrasing is captured on a LiveJournal page holding the full set of Vulcan-to-English translations: "It stirs your ruby half, Spock." How wonderful is that?

It's not so much strength driving Spock into the heart of V'Ger, but will -- a will that has effectively surrendered itself to V'Ger's incessant, ineluctable pull.

However, I'll give you "strength" in the sense that maybe only Spock, after Ilia, could withstand V'Ger's immense beckoning call, and then come back (in some altered form: materially or spiritually) to share his story.

Note any number of strange symmetries between Spock and Ilia, including their telepathic capabilities, and the fact they are VUL-CAN and DEL-TAN, respectively.

Strength? Yes. But not only strength. Also longing, enchantment, and a deeper alignment of being -- a grand sympathy -- with the inner darkness and longing of V'Ger itself.

The whole point of the Spock walk was to pick up the pace of the film. The sperm analogy is silly because this is not some race to get to V'ger, it's Spock's arc driving him to risk death to get answers and Kirk going after him.

The Spock walk does lend some gorgeous excitement to the film, and the pace does, indeed, pick up a notch or two (and what wonderful musical accompaniment) -- but I hardly hold a pace-enhancing effect be its only boon or function. Conceptually, like much of the film, that sequence is amazing: Star Trek on acid. Hail Doug Trumbull!

I suppose sperm analogies are suggestive of a "race", but they don't have to be. Moreover, there is a "race" on in the film (regardless of the feel of the pacing) to first intercept the mysterious cloud, and then to penetrate into the heart of the cloud, to get to grips with the mystery of V'Ger and save Earth from imminent annihilation.

A major motif in the film is concerned with characters acting in haste -- e.g., Kirk's impatience at demanding "warp speed now!", throwing the Enterprise into a wormhole; and Spock rather rashly exiting the Enterprise without alerting her captain and his commanding officer and friend, and then his hasty attempt at mind-melding with V'Ger, which renders him unconscious. Even V'Ger gets impatient with Kirk and "electrocutes" the Enterprise; which McCoy sardonically (but perhaps accurately) describes as a "tantrum". Outcomes based on desire. An almost sexual desire. Not prurience. But a more deeply-seated erotic desire for connection and transcension.

I'd never thought of it as a sperm analogy until I saw a review pointing out the many MANY metaphors throughout the movie and I remembered that this was Gene Roddenberry. And now I can't unsee it. But of course it is eventually Decker that 'fertilises' V'Ger so Spock's mind meld was firing blanks.

I for one have always view that burst of linear energy at the end, after Decker achieves the goal of joining with V'Ger, as a pseudo-sexual release. My 18 year old self and my friend who accompanied me found the idea very humorous on opening night.

Oh, indeed! There are any number of prevalent sexual/erotic motifs throughout the film, including a hyper-romanticised "waltz" around the Enterprise, as seen through the lusty eyes of Kirk in the film's sedate and seductive first act -- including, at the end of that sequence, a blatant "2001"/"Dr. Strangelove" docking metaphor.

Decker most certainly inseminates V'Ger in the, er, climax (!) -- providing the "male" seed to Ilia's "female". I believe a Paramount executive described the whole film, due to this palpably erotic "fusion" (albeit a late script development), as "The forty-million-dollar fuck".

The sleek innards of the Enterprise (and the gorgeous outer casing), the stunning innards of V'Ger, Decker and Ilia's prior history and powerfully residual attraction, Spock's latent longing to connect to V'Ger, the big theme of "touch" -- it's all so blatantly sexual and erotic in an elevated, idealised sense. Something we don't see too often. I love the following sentence in the following review (a mostly negative review, but has one or two solid insights):

https://thisislandrod.blogspot.com/2010/08/star-trek-motion-picture-1979.html

The climactic images of Decker and Ilia entwined by jism-like plasma, transforming along with V’ger through a new kind of sex act into a supra-cyborg that transcends all previous concepts, possesses a kinky, poetic, epic lustre that no entry in the series later dared.

It makes perfect sense when you think of the kinks and generous humanist worldview of Star Trek's creator, and the fact that the series was incepted in the 1960s, right in the middle of the so-called "free love" movement within the counterculture revolution. Star Trek, in a way, is also Sex Trek.

If you'll pardon me a pun, Roddenberry was nailing that memo to the wall in TMP -- and not just because "sex sells". Even today, people still haven't worked through all the implications, nor have they fully got to grips with all the myriad of conceptual elements that set TMP apart from the rest.

 

[publiusr]

I got that feeling from the smaller Monoliths setting Jupiter alight in 2010 as being a type of fertilization metaphor, but not TMP

 

[Cryogenic]

I got that feeling from the smaller Monoliths setting Jupiter alight in 2010 as being a type of fertilization metaphor, but not TMP

O, RLY?

Consider some of the following:

- Kirk gazes dreamily at a gleaming Enterprise lightly veiled in "sheer fabric" (spacedock scaffolding), and once inside, makes a calm, soothed expression as he closes his eyes while riding a turbolift to her highest point.

- Kirk takes the Enterprise into a wormhole -- tunnelling into the fabric of spacetime and inseminating his way out, courtesy of Decker and Chekov, with a photon torpedo.

- The Enterprise penetrates the cloud layers of V'Ger and arrives at an internal craft deep within the gauzy, bejewelled sheaf. The two nervously size each other up like lovers or partners heading toward a coital phase.

- The Enterprise is aggressively "probed" by V'Ger, which sexually burglarises its bridge/control centre, patterning and abducting one of its occupants (incidentally: the most sexually-advanced of those occupants).

- Spock (essentially: a sexually-repressed Vulcan who has worked hard to "purge" his human, red-blooded side) travels through an orifice to make contact with V'Ger, and is treated to a spectacular dance of imagery within V'Ger's private chamber, before he essentially mind-melds with V'Ger's most sensitive spot, experiencing sensory overload in the process (and during this sequence, a picture of the Pioneer plaque, which includes a line drawing of a naked man and woman, flashes over his face).

- After Spock's mindbending (or mindblowing) spacewalk, he is ejected from the chamber and essentially returns to the Enterprise sound asleep, evoking the post-orgasmic, oxytocin-driven calm that tends to make a sexual participant who reaches climax feel sleepy and satisfied.

- When Spock is recounting his experience in sickbay, he remains half in a trance, as if still recovering from the orgasmic peak the mind-meld delivered to him. He is a notably changed individual. He additionally feels sorrow for V'Ger and suggestively describes V'Ger as "barren" and "cold". In other words, V'Ger lacks fecundity and warmth. Spock also implies that V'Ger is searching for those things and a way to feel more complete.

- The Ilia probe arrives on the Enterprise in a sonic shower and is sent there naked. Kirk presses a button and "sprays" some clothes onto the Enterprise's "intruder", though these are markedly more sensual than the former Ilia's previous on-duty uniform.

- Decker blatantly longs to re-connect with Ilia and his attachment is exploited by Kirk and Spock in order to help save Earth. When he sees the Ilia probe in sickbay, which is undergoing a rather intimate examination down to the cellular level, he is struck dumb by the probe's appearance and apparent similitude with the real Ilia.

- Decker does re-connect with Ilia, and in so doing, joins with the entire V'Ger mechanism (now established to be more of a pulsing, "living machine"), while suggestive "jism-like plasma" encircles the connecting couple as V'Ger ascends into a new plane of consciousness.

- The new Decker-Ilia-V'Ger hybrid reaches a point of heightened bliss and literally explodes out of our known spacetime continuum. That's one heck of a satisfied customer.

- Kirk, Spock, and McCoy remark on what just happened, and Spock confirms that they "witnessed the birth" of a new lifeform: sexual reproduction through unprecedented means.