TMP is the best film. It is not 'tedious' at all

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Spock's Eyebrow, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. Forever94

    Forever94 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Totally agree. I just can't imagine star trek without that movie. It´s like the queen of all Star Trek movies. So epic and beautiful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The original quote, for reference: "In my opinion, anyone who finds the film tedious is not a true Trekker."

    I rather think that anyone who thinks they have the right to declare who is and isn't a true Trek fan is themselves not a true fan. Whatever the heck that even means.

    One can love an entertainment franchise while still feeling that portions of it deserve significant criticism. I'm not going to put on rose colored glasses and think Trek doesn't have its missteps, and I have difficulty taking those who do especially seriously.
     
  3. Forever94

    Forever94 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I only read his first version of his post. I don´t think is good to declare who is and who is not a true Star Trek fan, all who are here are Star Trek fans. But besides that unfortunate statement, i agree with every point of his post. Some people just answer to say how bad is that thing he said, instead of talking about the real matter.
     
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  4. Forever94

    Forever94 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    The face of Kirk when seeing the Enterprise in the spacedook is not precisely cold. :) TMP has some very emotional moments in a sober way, but i agree on that for the most part is a cold movie.
     
  5. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, apart from the off screen dialogue, my first rough draft edit is finished! Without a digital background, I just can't face editing all 300 frames of Spock tumbling towards Kirk so I'm going to stop at about 50 and hope it still looks OK. It's the only reduction I've made.

    On the first rendering, the Enterprise flyby was juddering. It will be heartbreaking if I can't resolve that issue.

    While fixing the final frames, I watched some TAS and there might be some potentially useful dialogue in a few episodes.

    "If that was supposed to be a joke, need I remind you that Vulcans don't tell jokes."

    "There are a lot of entrances to the interior."

    "Get ready to move, we've got to follow Spock inside."

    Worth watching the rest I think.
     
  6. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Commander Red Shirt

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    I've taken the movie's temperature, and I've found it is a clement 22 degrees Celsius, under normal atmospheric conditions.
     
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  7. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    That's not the editing. That's the screenplay that specified that cut.
     
  8. Forever94

    Forever94 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    That's the editing because they put the Starfleet scene right after the Vulcan Master tells that to Spock.
     
  9. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Commander Red Shirt

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    The powerful tonal contrast, between the aridity of Vulcan, and the pristine, near-palatial beauty of Starfleet Headquarters on a paradisaical Earth, certainly gives that transition a lot of clout. The sudden gear switch in Jerry Goldsmith's score is also very satisfying. The former sequence with Spock has a beautifully austere and remorseless air, while the San Fran sequence is bustling with optimism and life. The visuals and the music really sell that evocative contrast.

    Moreover, the Spock sequence is essentially a teaser (along with the Klingon battle sequence that opens the film), before the "main course" of the first act, which is concerned with Kirk and his crew readying the Enterprise and reaching the mysterious intruder. This enables the Spock sequence to inflect the film with a good deal of metaphysical melodrama -- we see V'Ger attacking (or defending itself -- the difference is hard to perceive) in the opening scene, and we then get a mystical revelation that this "thing" is really a "consciousness in space", and that Spock, Mister Logic himself, has some sort of connection to it.

    Ergo, a certain measure of tension is introduced into the film, which builds up the idea that the technocratic confidence of Starfleet won't be enough to deal with this threat -- Spock's immersion in Vulcan mysticism (and his gradual relinquishing of its manacle-like hold on his mind) will be an essential component in unravelling the mystery of V'Ger, and in neutralising the existential menace bearing down on the Federation.

    It's rather fetching that we don't see Spock again for a while after his short introduction on Vulcan. And his substitute is killed in a transporter accident, heightening the feel of his absence. We're frankly waiting for Spock to appear and begin to set the Enterprise and her captain right. It isn't really "the Enterprise" or Star Trek until Spock arrives. I love the thematic intensity of that idea.

    One oddity of the Vulcan sequence is that the Vulcan High Priestess very casually describes the imminent threat of the cloud and seems to already know what it is (at least as well as the Federation at that point), without showing the faintest concern for its starship-chomping abilities, or the fact that the Federation is at urgent risk. Yes, they're Vulcans, and apparently fairly aloof Vulcans at that, but this aspect also adds to the strangeness of the scene and the movie. Do they already know about V'Ger? Do they see it as a passing danger? Are they already indifferent to the material fate of the Federation, of Earth and of Vulcan, and of their very lives and the lives of others? If everyone returns to The Source via digital patterning (remember: Spock describes V'Ger as emanating "thought patterns of exactingly perfect order"), so be it?
     
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  10. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Vulcans have been shown previously to be culturally aloof, particularly as far as their religion goes. I think the high priestess could not fathom the nature of what she saw in the mind meld, that's why she makes the point that it's his humanity that makes him susceptible. It's another classic Vulcan burn, whether true or not.

    He might just be susceptible because he has melded with numerous robots and aliens on th 5 year mission.
     
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  11. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Commander Red Shirt

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    Hmm... I guess that could well be the case.

    The high priestess is certainly aware, however, that there's a big thing out there, and that it apparently "touches" Spock's human blood. She even glances loosely in its direction (though it might be a symbolic glance).

    Presumably, the Federation already has telemetry on V'Ger at this point -- although, granted, maybe not much more than it has been able to infer from V'Ger eliminating those Klingon ships, via its "listening post", Epsilon IX.

    Seems a bit... negligent on her part. Although, as you said, Vulcans have been shown to be culturally aloof. The word has negative connotations, but maybe the fundamentalism of the Vulcan belief system (its summit apparently being the Kolinahr discipline), for all its fruits, just wasn't suited to some of the deeper mysteries of space and time.

    Interesting. Are you saying it was like a "muscle" he had developed during his colourful journeys onboard the Starship Enterprise?
     
  12. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    But the SCRIPT is what specified that is what happens. A real editorial decision would be to do something different.
     
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  13. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    Well, this thing is 82 AUs in diameter(!), or 2 AUs in the Director's Edition. Even with current or recent instrumentation (on Earth or in orbit), something that big moving toward Earth would probably be detectable long before the subspace message from Epsilon IX arrived.
     
  14. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Commander Red Shirt

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    It depends on an object's intrinsic brightness. True that V'Ger is of considerable size, but if it doesn't put out or reflect much visible light, we'd have to be looking very carefully with the right instruments to see anything like it until it was practically in the solar system with present technology. There's also the problem of interstellar dust extinguishing light very well, although that shouldn't apply in our local stellar neighbourhood.

    Warp drive screws up all the physics, though. An object travelling faster than light would be undetectable and, in any case, violates GR (General Relativity, not Gene Roddenberry). Of course, that doesn't matter so much in the world of Trek. Maybe they're easily able to get around the physics issues somehow. I mean, they have warp drive, so they must do!

    But another snag here: V'Ger might have concealed itself against Starfleet sensors pretty well until fairly close. If they were able to get telemetry exceeding what Episilon IX feeds them, what is the point in Epsilon IX? It doesn't seem like too much of a vehicular size and mass can be detected in the ST universe until it's within 100 light years or so. But a more informed person might like to chime in.
     
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  15. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    I believe that TMP deserves significant criticism, I also count it as one of my favorite movies ever, and the top Trek movie.
     
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  16. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    The long-established technique of stellar occultation would be a means of detecting V'ger, even if it wasn't bright - and occultation normally involves planet-sized (or smaller) bodies, not ones that are multiple AUs in diameter. Assume that V'ger comes between Earth and a star that's 10 light years from Earth. Astronomers even today would notice that this star had become dim or invisible - and because light normally seen from that star would be 10 years old, it seems to me that Earth would have 10 years of warning time, irrespective of Epsilon IX's (subspace, presumably) transmission. Even the closest star to Earth is multiple light years away.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But if V'ger is travelling at warp speed, then does it block light?
     
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  18. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Commander Red Shirt

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    I think you're underestimating the difficulties presently involved. What you're assuming here is that V'Ger is capable of occulting a star in a detectable way. It's possible the great cloud that surrounds the tiny V'Ger craft (much smaller than our own moon) is mostly transparent to light. If that's the case, astronomers of today would have a hard time noticing any effect.

    Moreover, detecting a planetary transit relies on careful observation over an extended period of time. Why? Because planets that orbit their host star take a long time to go around it and complete an orbit -- typically, an orbital period is measured in years. We have to wait for the tell-tale dimming of star light to occur more than once to be sure, beyond reasonable doubt, that it's a planet we're detecting.

    V'Ger, by contrast, is traversing great distances at great speed. Something like V'Ger would easily slip through today's observational cracks. In the 23rd Century? Granted, we might see it and have good data on it when it is many light years away.
     
  19. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    I'm giving this more thought than it deserves, obviously, but:

    Keep in mind that we don't even know that V'ger is traveling at warp speed, at first. There's nothing to suggest that the Klingon encounter occurs at warp speed. Nor would its mission necessarily be facilitated by constant warp-speed travel. The only direct dialogue reference to V'ger's warp capability is when Sulu says "Starfleet reports forward velocity has slowed to sub-warp speed. We are three minutes from Earth's orbit." Indirectly it's suggested by Kirk's dialogue in the rec deck scene when he says it's 53.4 hours away from Earth. But V'ger could have gone to warp speed only when approaching Earth.

    Yes, detection of a planetary body by occultation takes a long time to verify. But the AU-scale V'ger wouldn't necessarily be transparent to light, and could be presumed to be denser near its core. (And where is it stated that the core is smaller than our Moon?)
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see how V'ger couldn't have been traveling at warp speed given the distances involved. Why would the E need warp speed to intercept V'ger if it wasn't traveling toward Earth at warp to begin with?
     
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