TMP an attempt to revise Star Trek back to 'The Cage' style?

[Christopher]

I wasn't thinking about Galactica 1980 (which is loved by few ) as much as the original 1978-79 show which had a high budget and ratings decline despite it's initial popularity.

Yes, I know, but G80 helps illustrate the point I was making about Larson's excessive spending being a factor in the original show's failure.

I could see Phase II taking a similar trajectory, not to mention potential conflict between Roddenberry and his co-producers (as did occur during the production of TMP) which might lead to a premature cancellation.

That depends. If they'd brought back Bob Justman as a producer, that would've helped enormously; Justman was the opposite of Larson, an expert at producing TV economically and avoiding waste.

There's also the fact that Battlestar Galactica just wasn't very good. It was an attempt at a very ambitious sci-fi epic from a producer whose usual output was schlock like BJ and the Bear and Manimal, and Larson and his staff just weren't up to the challenge. The series had its moments, but overall it was nowhere near the level of Star Trek from a writing or intelligence standpoint. If Phase II had happened, presumably it would've aspired to a smarter level like the original Trek, so there just wouldn't have been any comparison. Between the original Trek and TNG, intelligent science fiction television was practically nonexistent in the US. So a Phase II Trek would've stood out from the schlocky pack as much as TOS and TNG did in their respective eras. (TNG did get some competition in the smart-SF category toward the end of the '80s and into the '90s, but when it first premiered, it was head and shoulders above most of the rest of SFTV in smarts and sophistication, which is why it succeeded with audiences despite its first season being pretty bad compared to what came later.)

 

[mb22]

I 'm not aware of Justman being considered for Phase II. Roddenberry was supposed to work with Robert Goodwin and Harold Livingston. According to Livingston, his relationship with GR began going south over whether to hire Jon Povill as story editor, and is known to only have gotten worse once the project became TMP.

TNG also had a tumultuous behind the scenes beginning, but was able to overcome it eventually. I'm not so sure Phase II would have been as fortunate.

And I agree regarding the quality of the original Battlestar Galactica. However, I'm not sure a more intelligent SF show would have necessarily pulled in the ratings Paramount would need to support an expensive show like Phase II. The late seventies were the ratings heyday of dumb sitcoms, 'jiggle shows' like Charlies Angels, and other less than brilliant fare. Being above mediocre would have hardly been a guarantee of success.

 

[Christopher]

I 'm not aware of Justman being considered for Phase II.

I was speaking hypothetically. My point is that the success or failure of TV shows is primarily a matter of spending, of whether the show is profitable enough to offset its expense. So whether a producer is good or bad at controlling expenses is a key factor. I just mentioned Justman because he was legendarily good at keeping costs under control.

And I agree regarding the quality of the original Battlestar Galactica. However, I'm not sure a more intelligent SF show would have necessarily pulled in the ratings Paramount would need to support an expensive show like Phase II. The late seventies were the ratings heyday of dumb sitcoms, 'jiggle shows' like Charlies Angels, and other less than brilliant fare. Being above mediocre would have hardly been a guarantee of success.

That's oversimplifying. There have always been plenty of dumb shows on TV, but there have always been some quality shows that rose above the pack. In the late '70s, for instance, the one SF/fantasy drama that transcended all the rest for intelligence and quality was The Incredible Hulk with Bill Bixby. Outside of SF/F, the '70s were one of the finest eras for TV situation comedy, with standouts like M*A*S*H, All in the Family, and Barney Miller, and there were some notable crime/procedural shows like Columbo and Quincy, M.E. (which started out as a mystery show but evolved into a platform for social-activist commentary). And 1977 brought us Roots, one of the most powerful and important TV events ever.

 

[mb22]

Very true (although the dumb to smart comedy ratio was weighted in favor of the former, at least in my recollection). However, it still remains whether the general television audience was ready for a mature SF/fantasy continuing series, and if Roddenberry was really up to the challenge. But it's all hypothetical, as you have said.

 

[Christopher]

(although the dumb to smart comedy ratio was weighted in favor of the former, at least in my recollection)

Like I said, it always is. It's Sturgeon's Law.

However, it still remains whether the general television audience was ready for a mature SF/fantasy continuing series

If a good enough series comes along, it will make audiences "ready" for it. I'll never understand the mentality that show success is shaped by some kind of outside factor like audience "readiness" or "fatigue." That's just something people say to make excuses for weak shows or movies. If something good enough comes along, it will create an audience for its genre. Both the original Trek and TNG were virtually unique when they came along, raising the bar for SFTV above where it had been before.

and if Roddenberry was really up to the challenge.

More so in 1976-7 than a decade later, surely. Roddenberry's contributions to TNG were less than advertised and in many ways detrimental to the show, due to his failing health and drug dependency and the influence of his toxic handlers. In the '70s, he would've still been more functional, though he was always difficult to work with and had a way of alienating network execs. But with the right collaborators, he could've done a good show.

 

[mb22]

More so in 1976-7 than a decade later, surely. Roddenberry's contributions to TNG were less than advertised and in many ways detrimental to the show, due to his failing health and drug dependency and the influence of his toxic handlers. In the '70s, he would've still been more functional, though he was always difficult to work with and had a way of alienating network execs. But with the right collaborators, he could've done a good show.

Assuming he didn't alienate those collaborators. As mentioned, he was already feuding with Harold Livingstone, who was slated to have been one of the producers.

 

[Valenti]

If it found it's way to NBC and it's budgetary problems were solved in the typewriter it could have found it's footing with the right people as maybe all the wrong people up to and including Roddenberry would have cancelled each other out.

 

[Joe_Atari]

If that's not just coincidental you just made my day! #nerdgasm

Given that they were both sexy alien empaths with romantic histories with first officers named Will ___ker, I'm disinclined to believe it's coincidence.

As far as the similarities between the Ilia / Troi characters, Roger that; that was obvious way back in 1987. I was referring to the etymologies of the names.

Is there any documentation (interviews, etc.) where GR acknowledges this? Not that there has to be mind you; just curious.

 

[Christopher]

Is there any documentation (interviews, etc.) where GR acknowledges this? Not that there has to be mind you; just curious.

No, it's just something that belatedly struck me out of the blue a year or two ago. I have no proof, but it'd be one hell of a coincidence.

 

[FormerLurker]

No, it's just something that belatedly struck me out of the blue a year or two ago. I have no proof, but it'd be one hell of a coincidence.

I remember hearing an almost identical theory about a decade ago. I think someone at Star Trek: The Magazine was musing about it editorially. As I recall, there was no official response to it.

 

[Maurice]

Livingston, not Livingstone.

Star Trek [Phase] II needn't have been a money maker in the short-term. It was an anchor for the proposed network, much as Voyager was for UPN years later, a recognizable brand they could use to pull in viewers. It's possible the show would have been renewed even with mediocre ratings until a) the network collapsed, b) they got some shows that performed better than it, c) developed shows which did equally well in the ratings but cost less (Galactica's main downfall), or d) the network decided it was not working and pulled the plug. But since Charlie Bluhdorn refused to put money up for the network, it's all academic.

 

[XCV330]

The late seventies were the ratings heyday of dumb sitcoms, 'jiggle shows' like Charlies Angels, and other less than brilliant fare. Being above mediocre would have hardly been a guarantee of success.

70's TV also produced Roots , All in the Family, and M*A*S*H, so it's not so clear cut. There was room for an intelligent sci fi show. In fact if anything, the failure of Galactica shows there wasn't much room for badly written sf (Buck Rogers would take the reins on that for a couple of years, then Powers of Matthew Star for a couple more..).

By the late 1970's, yes audiences were infected with Star Wars fever, but Trek preexisted and there was already demand for it to return to TV. The networks were starting to realize that there was demand for intelligent script writing, at least once in awhile. I'd put the level of writing from some of the sitcoms of that time like WKRP up against most of the crap on the networks, now.

I digress. TOS Was a bit of a standout in its time too. Look at the top 30 Nielson ratings for the three years it was on and see what people preferred to Star Trek. I think there was a big market for Phase II, but it doesn't really matter as it never happened at least not in that time period.

 

[Christopher]

It was an anchor for the proposed network, much as Voyager was for PTN years later, a recognizable brand they could use to pull in viewers.

That was UPN. Maybe you're thinking of PTEN (Prime Time Entertainment Network), the Warner Bros.-operated syndication packager that distributed Babylon 5, Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, and Time Trax. (Plus a Maurice Hurley-created series called Pointman that I'd totally forgotten, and a couple of TV movie/backdoor pilots including Island City with Kevin Conroy and Brenda Strong.)

And I'm not sure the show could've gotten by with mediocre ratings if we're using UPN as a comparison. I'm pretty sure that Voyager and Enterprise were always pretty much the top-rated shows on UPN, considering that it ceased to exist not long after Enterprise ended. Nothing else on the network did well enough to keep it afloat without Trek.

In fact if anything, the failure of Galactica shows there wasn't much room for badly written sf (Buck Rogers would take the reins on that for a couple of years, then Powers of Matthew Star for a couple more..).

Buck Rogers shows how much the forces of network TV at the time worked against intelligent science fiction. Season 1's producer Bruce Lansbury deliberately made it "basic," just routine TV plots dressed up with superficial sci-fi trappings (the casino episode, the jailbreak episode, the cruise ship episode, the Olympics episode, etc.), because he didn't believe TV audiences had the intelligence or patience for anything more challenging or Star Trek-like (even though story editor Alan Brennert did his best to make the show's world feel as much like Trek as possible, and it actually did a solid, understated job of being sexually and racially inclusive). And while season 2 producer John Mantley started out trying to make it an intelligent show with social commentary and allegory (the season 2 premiere "Time of the Hawk" is actually a pretty darn good piece of television, even if it's blatantly a space Western), the season was very quickly dumbed down to an even dumber level than the inoffensive season 1 (as well as being far more misogynistic). The second episode of the season ("Journey to Oasis, Part 1 & 2" with Mark Lenard) had a smart, allegorical subplot about xenophobia and bigotry paired with some really stupid Lost in Space-level stuff, and after that they didn't do a smart or thoughtful episode again until the very last one, "The Dorian Secret." Perhaps they were able to get away with it then because they'd been cancelled and the network didn't care anymore (much like how Galactica 1980 ended with its only good episode, "The Return of Starbuck"). But while I don't know for sure, it feels to me like Mantley was probably forced to dial back his ambitions by the network regime, because executives at the time lacked faith in the audience's ability to handle challenging ideas and believed science fiction in particular should be lowbrow kid stuff.

 

[Maurice]

I meant mediocre rating compared to the big 3 networks. A fledgling network in its first year with limited affiliates was not going to be in the same league.

 

[Valenti]

Yea, it would have failed, by the looks of it, and then it would have mercifully been picked up by NBC and done right ironically.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

As someone noted on another thread, it was probably one of the only times where a theatrical movie series followed a TV series and was meant to be a continuation of that series, and not a reboot or remake.

Nah, there were a number of theatrical features in the '50s and '60s that continued TV series and starred their original casts -- Dragnet,

Technically, the Dragnet movie did not continue the 1967-70 series; it was Jack Webb's pilot shot in 1966, with the content being so appealing to NBC, they approved the return of Dragnet as a midseason replacement in January of 1967. The pilot eventually aired in 1969, but seemed out of place as the wealth of relationship built up between Friday and Gannon (by the 1969 season of the weekly series) was not to be found in the pilot.

Batman

Batman the movie was a spin off production, but its continuity with the series was upended with the movie bringing back Catwoman with no explanation, after her apparent death at the conclusion of her debut story, "Better Luck Next Time". Adding to the movie's questionable status as a continuing production is the fact that when Batman's second season launched, Catwoman returned in "Hot off the Griddle", only that time, Commissioner Gordon tells Batman that Catwoman is "alive...and well"--a direct reference to the events of her 1st season debut--completely trashing the movie's place as some in-continuity story taking place between the seasons.

House of Dark Shadows and Night of Dark Shadows (although I don't think those were in continuity with the show),

They were not. In fact, series creator Dan Curtis used what was supposed to be the original Barnabas plot for the TV series (ending with the vampire's staking until Barnabas became too popular to kill off) for the film. The follow up--Night of Dark Shadows--barely had a connection to the first film, if not for a single, passing reference to House of Dark Shadows' Elizabeth Collins Stoddard.

 

[Firebird]

Yea, it would have failed, by the looks of it, and then it would have mercifully been picked up by NBC and done right ironically.

Nope.

 

[Harvey]

As someone noted on another thread, it was probably one of the only times where a theatrical movie series followed a TV series and was meant to be a continuation of that series, and not a reboot or remake.

Peter Gunn, McHale’s Navy, and Our Miss Brooks all had theatrical films that were nominally in continuity with their antecedents on television. There may be others that predate TMP.

 

[Christopher]

Peter Gunn, McHale’s Navy, and Our Miss Brooks all had theatrical films that were nominally in continuity with their antecedents on television. There may be others that predate TMP.

I listed the McHale movies in my earlier post, along with several other examples from the '50s and '60s, but I didn't know about the other two you mentioned.

Going back even sooner, there were a few movies based on radio shows, like the loose series of films featuring Fibber McGee & Molly and the Great Gildersleeve crossing over with Edgar Bergen & Charlie McCarthy. Gildersleeve got several movies of his own once he got a radio spinoff. And of course the Lone Ranger originated on radio and then got quite a few movies, while the Green Hornet got a couple of movie serials.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think that Thunderbirds Are Go and arguably also Thunderbird 6 would qualify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbirds_Are_Go
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbird_6