Spoilers Titans - DC Universe Series

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Happy Harleydays, Jul 19, 2018.

  1. Happy X-Mas (War Is Over)

    Happy X-Mas (War Is Over) If you want it Premium Member

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    That was Jason Todd 2.0. Todd 1.0 was basically Dick Grayson with a different name,
     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    That's kind of a sad interpretation. I mean, in the comics, the way Dick turns out shows that Bruce was a good parent to him, because Dick turned out happier and better-adjusted than Bruce even though they went through the same kind of formative tragedy. The whole reason Bruce took on Dick as his ward was to make sure he grew up happier than Bruce did, and he succeeded. And that's important, because it shows that Batman makes a positive difference, that he's not just some destructive vigilante.
     
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  3. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I get the impression that Bruce taking on Jason is something of an over-compensation for how he felt like he failed Dick. That said though, with Jason it seems as though Bruce is trying to be more of a mentor than a father.

    As maligned as Jason is in the comics (and for good reason) I always felt like Tim Drake was the least convincing (and least interesting) Robin from a "why did Bruce think this was a good idea" POV. At least with Jason it's clear he was trying to steer the kid away from a life on the streets where (at best) he'd end up getting his nose broken by Batman in a few years and give him some sense of purpose and discipline. (Stephanie Brown is still my second favourite after Dick though, even if the comics treated her very poorly!)

    Anyway, I think it is interesting how they've kept Bruce strictly from Dick & Jason's POV so far. There's a third side to this story we haven't seen yet and I suspect at least part of what Dick is blaming on Bruce is really almost entirely on him. I mean it can't be a coincidence that they chose to tell this story with Rachel as a young teen with Dick assuming the role of an unwilling parent figure who takes off and leaves her alone all the time. I think by the end of the season, Dick will have changed his attitude towards Bruce somewhat. Also, there's something about this whole thing that keeps my brain circling back to a certain line from Batman Beyond...

    P.S. How much do you want to bet Bruce already has a Nightwing suit and new gear made up and waiting for Dick?
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I think it'd mean more if it were Dick's own choice to adopt that identity. That's what it's always symbolized -- Dick becoming his own man and his own superhero.
     
  5. Happy Harleydays

    Happy Harleydays Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wouldn't exactly call comics Bruce particularly good at parenting... but all of that is actually applicable here, Dick is better adjusted, and in the flashbacks we see that Bruce takes him in because he wants to help him, and only starts training him as Robin after Dick starts sneaking out to find the people responsible for his parents' death and declares he wants to kill them.

    So I'm sure he did some things right as well, after all Dick is in the current mess because he wants to help people, and he's going about it way more openly and compassionately than Batman would have done. The thing is here we're hearing about Bruce from Dick's perspective at a point where both Dick their relationship are at the lowest. Also...

    I agree with that, he is deflecting at least part of the blame for some of his choices on Batman.
     
  6. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, hence the use of the word "waiting". Just because Dick chose something for himself, doesn't mean Bruce didn't anticipate and prepare for either eventuality. That's kind of his whole thing. If nothing else it would be a demonstration of Bruce's faith in Dick, that he knew he'd get through this rough spot on his own and be ready to become his own person.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Depends on the era. In the Golden and Silver Ages, he was portrayed as pretty much an ideal father figure for Dick. Sure, he was a father figure who took his preadolescent foster son out to fight bad guys with guns and deathtraps, but by the logic of adventure fiction for children, that was the perfect wish-fulfillment fantasy dad.


    But what I mean is, it kind of undermines the whole "his own person" thing if Bruce designs and makes the new costume for him, let alone picks his new hero name for him.
     
  8. Gavin70

    Gavin70 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    As I understand it, originally Jason Todd was basically a clone of Dick Grayson. Which is why Bruce took him on as Robin. It was only later that they decided to retcon the character to make him more distinguishable, that he became the loose canon that was trying to steal the Batmobile's hubcaps and eventually got killed. While the retcon made him a more interesting character, it made it far less understandable that Batman would take him on as Robin. Might have just been Bruce being incredibly oblivious about people & relationships and thinking he could "reform" Jason by turning him into a vigilante? Or perhaps he realised he needed Robin to balance out his darker instincts (highlighted when Tim Drake took over) and just chose badly while overcompensating for Dick effectively rejecting him?
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It was kind of weird for a while, though -- in the Batman title, under Max Allan Collins and then Jim Starlin, Jason developed that hotheaded, borderline-delinquent personality that made him so hated; but simultaneously in Detective Comics, Mike W. Barr was telling retro, '40s-style Batman and Robin adventures with Jason still being the happy-go-lucky, innocent Dick clone he'd been pre-Crisis. They were supposed to be in a shared continuity, but they handled the character differently. (Hardly the only time that's happened in comics, though.)
     
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  10. Gavin70

    Gavin70 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I've seen crossover events where the same character flows through a couple of different titles by different writers and artists and if it wasn't for the costume you wouldn't know it was the same character. Completely different looks and personality.
     
  11. thribs

    thribs Commodore Commodore

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    Jason Todd was an asshole. He’s perfect!
    Now where do we vote to kill him?

    Logic dictates that Dick should go and tell Bruce about Jadon’s behaviour but I doubt he will.

    They also hinted about Dick becoming something new. I hope they explain the Superman connection to him as that is where the Nightwing name comes from.
     
  12. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Who said anything about Bruce coming up with a design? It could just be a plain black suit and mask. All of the advanced materials, gadgets but plain and unadorned. The name and blue markings could easily be 100% Greyson's idea and added after the fact.
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    You did, when you called it "a Nightwing suit."
     
  14. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ah Christoper; never met a hair you didn't want to split, did ya? ;)
     
  15. Noname Given

    Noname Given Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You assume Bruce (who in this universe put a tracking device in Dick without Dick knowing) isn't already aware of what Jason Todd is doing. ;)

    As to the Nightwing costume -- I hope that they show Dick somehow retooling his current Robin costume into the Nightwing costume; or somehow he goes behind Bruce (via Alfred) to get the resources to make the costume he'll use. But in the end, it's better and more in character if they show Dick creating the Nightwing costume on his own. (IE a clean break from Bruce/Batman.)

    The above said, I have a feeling that the 'Safehouse' Jason Todd gave Dick access to, will somehow ultimately become the 'Titan Tower'.
     
  16. Happy X-Mas (War Is Over)

    Happy X-Mas (War Is Over) If you want it Premium Member

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    They've released some pictures of Conor Leslie as Donna Troy. In one she's sporting a camera, implying she's a photographer like in the New Teen Titans
     
  17. Happy Harleydays

    Happy Harleydays Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, there won't be any retooling after this one... ;)
     
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  18. Xerxes82

    Xerxes82 Commander Red Shirt

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    So, after this most recent episode, I have two thoughts.

    The first, can we ditch Grayson, trade him for Jason, and make Wonder Girl the new leader? She has more charm and charisma in this one appearance than Grayson has managed all season. And Jason Todd, King of Assholes is a much more dynamic presence than mopey, woe is me Grayson as well.

    Second, how long before somebody drops the Nightwing name? It's going to have to come from somewhere. Unless they have Dick pull it out of nowhere at the last second, which would be dumb. I keep waiting to hear it somewhere, dropped in someplace small, laying a seed. Next week feels like a poor choice, with a Hawk and Dove focus. Though I suppose anything is possible.
     
  19. Happy Harleydays

    Happy Harleydays Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No. :p

    Just in this episode they name-dropped the Justice League, Wonder Woman, Joker, Penguin (and even indirectly Green Arrow with that "Be something else... someone else" :D) so it would have been a bit much if they included Nightwing too.
    I doubt he'll settle on it before the season finale though.
     
  20. Xerxes82

    Xerxes82 Commander Red Shirt

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    Why the snide smiley? He's by far the weakest part of the series. And I say that as a huge Robin fan. If you disagree, that's fine. But this version of Dick Grayson is dull and uninteresting so far.

    Obviously. But unless they have him pull the name out of his ass (which would be lazy in the extreme), he's going to be inspired to choose the name from somewhere. That's what I'm getting at. Somewhere the show needs to utter the phrase "Nightwing" within earshot of Dick Grayson. Could be Donna, Starfire, Dove, Beast Boy, hell Bruce himself if they finally show him (unlikely to the point of being impossible). I'd even be ok with a flashback where a faceless and unseen "Clark" is telling younger Dick stories about the heroes of his homeland. He doesn't need to become Nightwing any time soon. But he needs a reason to choose the name.