Timeline Altered More Than Just Sela?

[Farscape One]

I don't know if anyone else thought of this, but something occured to me.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise", altered timeline Tasha went back with the Enterprise-C. She ended up being captured along with some of the crew, and she gave birth to Sela later. What if that isn't the only change made to the timeline?

Considering the giant leap in technology for the Romulans (Based on some dialogue like Tasha telling Castillo that his ship can maneuver much better and the fact they use artificial black holes as their power source, which we see no other Alpha or Beta Quadrant power use.) between Narendra III and the end of TNG season 1, at that point being 20 years, is it possible the Romulans got some knowledge about their future ships from her, by torture or some other means, and were able to design and build them more quickly than they could have otherwise? Sort of like how VGR's "FUTURE'S END" shows that 29th century technology was basically the cause of the computer revolution of the 20th century.

Also, I always wondered... what happened to the other survivors?

 

[F. King Daniel]

My takeaway was that Sela was always there in the Next Gen timeline, and the "Yesterday's Enterprise" one was how history originally went before the Enterprise-C was sent back (not entirely unlike the events of 2009 Star Trek)

Guinan thinking TNG was how things should be doesn't really make sense in that context, unless you say that's all the result of her time in the timeless Nexus and the future shown to her there.

Oh yeah, and it's from the Enterprise-C survivors (or Tasha, at least) that they learn Jean-Luc Picard is a cadet worth cloning.

 

[Farscape One]

But Picard was already captain of the Stargazer by the time the Enterprise-C was destroyed. He wasn't a cadet. I still don't buy how the Romulans just picked him to clone.

And about Guinan, I have always felt GENERATIONS was a good explanation as to why Guinan had such an insight in time. It might even partially explain how she thinks she can defend herself against Q when she puts her hands up like she did in "Q Who".

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I don't know if anyone else thought of this, but something occured to me.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise", altered timeline Tasha went back with the Enterprise-C. She ended up being captured along with some of the crew, and she gave birth to Sela later. What if that isn't the only change made to the timeline?

Considering the giant leap in technology for the Romulans (Based on some dialogue like Tasha telling Castillo that his ship can maneuver much better and the fact they use artificial black holes as their power source, which we see no other Alpha or Beta Quadrant power use.) between Narendra III and the end of TNG season 1, at that point being 20 years, is it possible the Romulans got some knowledge about their future ships from her, by torture or some other means, and were able to design and build them more quickly than they could have otherwise? Sort of like how VGR's "FUTURE'S END" shows that 29th century technology was basically the cause of the computer revolution of the 20th century.

Also, I always wondered... what happened to the other survivors?

Maybe that's one possible explanation for the changes in the setting in the first seasons of TNG and later 24th century Trek, like the Federation - Cardassian War while originally the Federation was supposed to be at peace for a long time when the Show was in its infancy for example.

 

[F. King Daniel]

But Picard was already captain of the Stargazer by the time the Enterprise-C was destroyed. He wasn't a cadet. I still don't buy how the Romulans just picked him to clone.

Do we know when Shinzon was cloned? I recall he was engineered to grow fast, which is what was killing him in Nemesis. Tom Hardy was 25 when Nemesis was released, and the Enterprise-C was sent back 22 years several years prior to Nemesis. Is it possible he was cloned on the Stargazer when he was captain?

 

[E-DUB]

My impression always was that Picard was sampled for cloning during the events of "Unification" and the clone was "force matured" as we've seen happen before with clones.

 

[johnnybear]

I'd go along with that! But we could say that every inconsistency in the entire series is due to damage to an earlier period in time! A bit like how Spock's pet in TAS dies in a different way to how Spock remembers it! Plus the unseen aliens causing trouble in the past before the Federation came together (ENT) has altered the events of that said series plus maybe TOS itself and even how DSC is now! The Xindi assault upon earth was an attack that never happened in the original timeline and so it's reverberations will have altered the future which we have already seen in TOS to an unknown quantity!
JB

 

[thribs]

Star Trek Online recently had a level about this. That because of it it was causing temporal disruptions and Daniels needed to correct it. Apparently it was due to two versions of the same person existing because of the interference.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There's no proof that Sela wasn't there all along.

Just because we never saw her before the ep where she appeared, doesn't mean she didn't exist.

It's a closed loop. Sela was always supposed to happen. You can't prove otherwise.

 

[DonIago]

Of course, one also can't prove that Sela was always supposed to happen.

 

[johnnybear]

If Sela's Mother died due to a confrontation with Armus and she only reappeared because of a long lost Enterprise turning up and changing the timeline into an alternate reality where the Mother was captured by the Romulans (even though she died two years earlier) and enslaved, tortured and raped, then I'd say that Sela wasn't meant to happen in the normal TNG universe!
JB

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

There's no proof that Sela wasn't there all along.

Just because we never saw her before the ep where she appeared, doesn't mean she didn't exist.

It's a closed loop. Sela was always supposed to happen. You can't prove otherwise.

This. I’ve always considered the events of “Yesterday’s Enterprise” and “Redemption” to be part of a self-consistent phenomenon. The Enterprise-C was always supposed to travel forward to 2366 before returning to her own time, and Sela was always supposed to born as a result of Tasha meeting an unnamed Romulan officer. There’s no version of history in which Sela never existed; only our knowledge of her existence changed.

 

[Mytran]

I'd go further than that - I doubt that the "war future" the Ent-C visited is even part of TNG's own timeline, specifically because there was no disruption to its timeline in order to make such a future happen.

In every other example of "history" having been changed, it is due to interference from an outside agent (usually someone coming back from the future to change the past). That is not the case here - the normal course of events (specifically a massive photon torpedo burst) caused a ship to be displaced in time. The other normal courses of events then continued for 20 years until the E-D found the anomaly. If anything, the "war future" is the normal, natural state of affairs! However, that is clearly not the case. Therefore, it would seem that the E-C found itself in a darker, parallel universe instead (hey, it wouldn't be the first time!). It would also explain the fact that the E-C spent several days in 2266, yet when they went back no time at all had passed for the crew of the E-D

YMMV. But I do certainly agree that Sela was always part of the timeline, and it ties into the Picard clone very well

 

[DonIago]

I daresay that going by multiverse theory the episode muddles things a bit in terms of presentation.

Timeline A at the beginning of the episode is the one we've (presumably) been watching since the beginning of the show. The Tasha of this timeline was killed by an oil slick. We have no explicit evidence (or do we? See my final paragraph) to suggest one way or another whether Sela exists. The E-C was destroyed and history recorded it, whether or not the Tasha from Timeline B (see below) was aboard.

When the E-C emerges from the rift, it doesn't make any sense that Timeline A 'morphs' into a different timeline. Rather we're instead now simply watching a different timeline, Timeline B, in which the E-C always traveled forward in time but did not travel back to the past, and a terrible war ensued. Near the end of the episode, the E-C (presumably the one from this timeline to begin with, but who knows? All that's relevant is that nobody knows what happened to the E-C in this timeline) travels back through the rift with Timeline B Tasha aboard.

When the E-C travels back into the past, it can't travel back into the past of Timeline B (because we've already seen Timeline B's future), so it must instead travel to a different timeline. The real question is whether the E-C is traveling back to an entirely different timeline, Timeline C, which bears a close resemblance to Timeline A, or whether it in fact, through some remarkable coincidence, traveled back to the past of Timeline A.

It seems to be the intention of the writers that the E-C traveled back to Timeline A, but there's no absolute proof within the Trekverse itself that this is what occurred. We have no evidence that the timeline we see at the end of the episode isn't simply remarkably similar to the "original" timeline except for some significant differences that will only become clear later.

That all said, if we assume that the shadowy figure in "The Mind's Eye" is intended to be Sela, then clearly the E-C did in fact travel back to Timeline A, but it wasn't an alteration, just something that always had occurred.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I daresay that going by multiverse theory the episode muddles things a bit in terms of presentation.

Timeline A at the beginning of the episode is the one we've (presumably) been watching since the beginning of the show. The Tasha of this timeline was killed by an oil slick. We have no explicit evidence (or do we? See my final paragraph) to suggest one way or another whether Sela exists. The E-C was destroyed and history recorded it, whether or not the Tasha from Timeline B (see below) was aboard.

When the E-C emerges from the rift, it doesn't make any sense that Timeline A 'morphs' into a different timeline. Rather we're instead now simply watching a different timeline, Timeline B, in which the E-C always traveled forward in time but did not travel back to the past, and a terrible war ensued. Near the end of the episode, the E-C (presumably the one from this timeline to begin with, but who knows? All that's relevant is that nobody knows what happened to the E-C in this timeline) travels back through the rift with Timeline B Tasha aboard.

When the E-C travels back into the past, it can't travel back into the past of Timeline B (because we've already seen Timeline B's future), so it must instead travel to a different timeline. The real question is whether the E-C is traveling back to an entirely different timeline, Timeline C, which bears a close resemblance to Timeline A, or whether it in fact, through some remarkable coincidence, traveled back to the past of Timeline A.

It seems to be the intention of the writers that the E-C traveled back to Timeline A, but there's no absolute proof within the Trekverse itself that this is what occurred. We have no evidence that the timeline we see at the end of the episode isn't simply remarkably similar to the "original" timeline except for some significant differences that will only become clear later.

That all said, if we assume that the shadowy figure in "The Mind's Eye" is intended to be Sela, then clearly the E-C did in fact travel back to Timeline A, but it wasn't an alteration, just something that always had occurred.

I concur but "The Mind's Eye" happened after "Yesterday's Enterprise", so it doesn't prove if we're in Timeline A again or in C after Tasha arrived in the past.

 

[Mytran]

I daresay that going by multiverse theory the episode muddles things a bit in terms of presentation.

Timeline A at the beginning of the episode is the one we've (presumably) been watching since the beginning of the show. The Tasha of this timeline was killed by an oil slick. We have no explicit evidence (or do we? See my final paragraph) to suggest one way or another whether Sela exists. The E-C was destroyed and history recorded it, whether or not the Tasha from Timeline B (see below) was aboard.

When the E-C emerges from the rift, it doesn't make any sense that Timeline A 'morphs' into a different timeline. Rather we're instead now simply watching a different timeline, Timeline B, in which the E-C always traveled forward in time but did not travel back to the past, and a terrible war ensued. Near the end of the episode, the E-C (presumably the one from this timeline to begin with, but who knows? All that's relevant is that nobody knows what happened to the E-C in this timeline) travels back through the rift with Timeline B Tasha aboard.

When the E-C travels back into the past, it can't travel back into the past of Timeline B (because we've already seen Timeline B's future), so it must instead travel to a different timeline. The real question is whether the E-C is traveling back to an entirely different timeline, Timeline C, which bears a close resemblance to Timeline A, or whether it in fact, through some remarkable coincidence, traveled back to the past of Timeline A.

It seems to be the intention of the writers that the E-C traveled back to Timeline A, but there's no absolute proof within the Trekverse itself that this is what occurred. We have no evidence that the timeline we see at the end of the episode isn't simply remarkably similar to the "original" timeline except for some significant differences that will only become clear later.

That all said, if we assume that the shadowy figure in "The Mind's Eye" is intended to be Sela, then clearly the E-C did in fact travel back to Timeline A, but it wasn't an alteration, just something that always had occurred.

Pretty much exactly my own thoughts - only you explained it more clearly

 

[DonIago]

Ah, good catch on "The Mind's Eye"...it's been awhile.

Thanks folks! That was one of the more annoying things I've tried to write up.

 

[Stroudarian]

I don't know if anyone else thought of this, but something occured to me.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise", altered timeline Tasha went back with the Enterprise-C. She ended up being captured along with some of the crew, and she gave birth to Sela later. What if that isn't the only change made to the timeline?

Considering the giant leap in technology for the Romulans (Based on some dialogue like Tasha telling Castillo that his ship can maneuver much better and the fact they use artificial black holes as their power source, which we see no other Alpha or Beta Quadrant power use.) between Narendra III and the end of TNG season 1, at that point being 20 years, is it possible the Romulans got some knowledge about their future ships from her, by torture or some other means, and were able to design and build them more quickly than they could have otherwise? Sort of like how VGR's "FUTURE'S END" shows that 29th century technology was basically the cause of the computer revolution of the 20th century.

Also, I always wondered... what happened to the other survivors?

I always thought that they should have done a follow up on the remaining survivors also, not just Tasha.