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Spoilers Timeless: Season 1 on NBC

There was a woman in Germany who was hit by a hunter's stray bullet which deflected off her metal underwire.

Same story happened to a woman who saw burglars breaking into her neighbor's house in Detroit and they shot at her.

No, I mean I think I may have seen the same thing in some earlier time-travel show or movie, where an anachronistic underwire bra was useful for picking a lock in the past. I could just be having deja vu, though. Maybe it was just the underwire-lockpick part without the time travel -- but it sure as hell wasn't in Friends, a show I never watched.


Even the premise is sorta odd. How do you chase a time traveler? I guess they're using the 'San Dimas time' thing mentioned, so they have a little time after he goes back to chase him before he can make whatever change? OK if that's the setup, just don't much like it personally. From any POV that makes any sense, once the bad guy goes into the past, he's had weeks/months/years to make the change, and you're already living in the result.

Well, from any POV that really makes sense, there's no danger of your timeline being changed at all. Real physics allows for only two possibilities: the self-consistent or post-selection model, where any time travel to the past is simply part of the one and only timeline and was always part of the events that cause it to unfold the way it did, and the probabilistic model, where the time travel branches off a parallel history that coexists alongside the unaltered original. Both mathematically and logically, the premise that an event can happen and then be made to have not happened is absurd and meaningless. Any timeline that exists will always exist; at most, an alternate can be created alongside it.

So any work of time-travel fiction that allows for the original timeline to be "rewritten" at all is more fantasy than science fiction, and so the rules can be fairly arbitrary. Still, the important thing in fantasy is that the ground rules at least be self-consistent. I suppose the "San Dimas Time" model could sort of be justified if you assume it's a property of the two time machines being linked -- maybe that link requires the two machines' internal clocks to remain synchronized, so that anything that takes X hours in the reference frame of the main machine will also take X hours in the reference frame of the "lifeboat," no matter how far apart they are in time.


That, and whole thing is doomed to failure. They can't go back anywhere they already went, so everything they do is permanent. They've already skewed themselves into an alternate timeline, and it will be worse every time they travel. Basically exactly the problem in VOY's Year of Hell episode, and begging for the same reset button ending. Every thing they change will break a couple other things, so on and so forth. We'll see at least one alternate present every episode, and should never be the same one. Timeline they left from the first time is already dead and buried, they'll never see it again without a reset button.

Well, yes and no. As stated, their mission is not to preserve the original timeline per se, but to prevent Flynn from unmaking the United States of America. As long as the US and its values continue to endure, then the mission is successful even if a few details of individual lives are modified.

It's actually a bit like an earlier NBC time-travel show, Quantum Leap. There, Sam's "mission" was specifically to change history in small-scale ways, to alter individual people's lives for the better, and it was occasionally theorized (at least in the tie-in novels) that the ultimate end goal of this was to create a better future overall. The show focused on Sam's end of the story and rarely showed the changes his actions caused uptime, but the novels by Ashley McConnell often addressed how the timeline was constantly shifting around the folks up at Project Quantum Leap. This is in a similar vein, although it's also an opposite one, since the heroes' mission is to prevent or minimize changes rather than causing them.


And even with that argument, they shouldn't be jumping around, but slowly going further and further back. Can't undo a screwup in 1930's by being in the 50's. Can't really fix it in the 20's other than to steer away from it further, but it'll just screw up 2016 even worse... I just don't get the end game here.

That's because "undoing screwups" isn't even on the table. The "no backsies" rule ensures that. Flynn's actions are what dictate the sequence of events. He chooses where to take the main time capsule, and the lifeboat can only lock onto wherever the main capsule is and follow it there. So the only thing the heroes have the option to do is to react to Flynn's sorties into the past and try to head off his attacks on history -- ideally to prevent any change at all, or at worst to minimize the impact of any changes they can't avoid.

As for Flynn, it seems the most logical option for him would've been to start much further back than the Hindenburg. If he really wants to unmake America, as they believe, why not go back to the late 1770s and give modern weapons to the British? But maybe we don't know his real agenda yet. Although it does seem that he's trying to follow the book Lucy will write in the future, so I expect a degree of causal loopiness.


Same sort of problem that made me generally hate the Mirror Universe stories. At best, it only works at ONE point in time, and probably only if the delta between timelines happened very near-term. Too many coincidences and similarities; actual changes would have HUGE impacts to who lives/dies/even exists, conception timing being off means even if the person is born, not really the same person and may not look the same (more like a brother), etc. And to then go 100 years forward and imagine that still basically looked like our crew despite an extra 100 years of divergence? Ugh. Fun to play evil dress-up, but a dumb concept once it got reused.

Actually, the larger the interval between generations, the less likely it is that the death of an ancestor will prevent a descendant from being born. Humans have a finite number of chromosomes, so beyond maybe 8-12 generations back, the odds that you have any genes at all inherited from a single given ancestor fall toward zero. For instance, 10 generations back you have 1024 ancestors, so if one of them is killed off, you still have 1023 other ancestors whose descendants would be able to contribute to your eventual existence. And the one ancestor who's removed could just be replaced by a different one, since their spouse would just marry someone else. And if it's far enough back that they would only be your geneological ancestors rather than genetic ones, then that substitution might have zero effect on your own genes. If the right distant ancestor were removed at the right point, then the cumulative effect might amplify and erase your whole family, but it's more likely that the loss of that ancestor's contribution would be damped out by the contributions of all your other ancestors from that generation. It may seem paradoxical, but removing a given person from history would probably have a greater effect on their immediate descendants than their more distant ones.
 
Just to the last bit, not quite sure there. I get that you're removing genes from a larger pool, so odds are you'll be mostly the same genetically, but the odds of the same people being in the same places that far down the road when conditions have changed, less and less likely it looks like the other timeline. Even little changes, maybe your parents still get together, but conceived you a month or two earlier. I mean, you and a brother share 100% of the same relatives, but he isn't you, just genetically similar. Same material, different result. But yeah, get the idea that you should kill the guy's father or grandfather and not a random caveman. Then again, killing that random caveman might drop the world's population 20%, so you might get your man through attrition, it just won't be a targeted strike.

So even if the MirrorU divergence was close enough so that Kirk and Co. already were in play and mostly still converged there, by TNG timeframe, things should have diverged much more, so having all of THOSE crews still be essentially the same people, and in many of the same places, always struck me as dumb. I know, fiction, and just playing evil dress up for tv, but concept always just grated on me
 
Well, yes and no. As stated, their mission is not to preserve the original timeline per se, but to prevent Flynn from unmaking the United States of America. As long as the US and its values continue to endure, then the mission is successful even if a few details of individual lives are modified.

I get it, just don't LIKE it, I guess. One, kinda a dumb 'wave the flag' sorta concept for a show, especially if you're going in knowing you'll likely never return to 'your' universe, so you're just saving a bunch of USA-like countries for other realities. Probably should have been made clear to the crew upfront that they were screwed no matter what. Judging from the woman's reaction when the sister vanished, guessing she hadn't thought too much about it. Tough to see a path to 'success' in their mission. Their reality died the second they got in the pod (well really when the bad guy did, but they'd have never known it if they hadn't chased him).

It's actually a bit like an earlier NBC time-travel show, Quantum Leap. There, Sam's "mission" was specifically to change history in small-scale ways, to alter individual people's lives for the better, and it was occasionally theorized (at least in the tie-in novels) that the ultimate end goal of this was to create a better future overall. The show focused on Sam's end of the story and rarely showed the changes his actions caused uptime, but the novels by Ashley McConnell often addressed how the timeline was constantly shifting around the folks up at Project Quantum Leap. This is in a similar vein, although it's also an opposite one, since the heroes' mission is to prevent or minimize changes rather than causing them.
Yes, most of us have heard of QL ;) but like you said, their mission was intentionally the opposite. Sam didn't care what happened to his 'original' timeline (despite the tagline about hoping his next leap takes him home). His actions were intentionally making changes, so he was never going to return to what he would consider home, it would be drastically different. Was there ever much description about what was really going on in his present? Entire mission only makes sense if something has gone somewhat horribly wrong, but don't recall that being the case. Al seemed to be having a somewhat normal life, so messing with the timeline on that scale seems odd.

This is the same guy behind Revolution on NBC, right? Has a little of the same camera look to it, and i looked it up to check that it wasn't her, but the sister (amy) even looked like Charley from Revolution. Bigger thing it has in common in my opinion, is that it feels like it sold a neat concept, but didn't exactly put enough thought into how it plays out (or why), so it'll likely get dumb/silly quickly enough. Like I said, I'll watch for a while, but I don't have much faith that it survives...
 
Just to the last bit, not quite sure there. I get that you're removing genes from a larger pool, so odds are you'll be mostly the same genetically

As I said, you don't actually inherit any genes from relatives farther back from maybe 12-14 generations. There's only a finite number of bits that human chromosomes break down into when they recombine, a limited number of "building blocks" that a genome can be pieced together from, and eventually the number of ancestors you have in a given generation exceeds that number of chromosomal building blocks, so the number of genealogical ancestors that you have any genes at all in common with decreases more and more with each generation. Further back than maybe 350-400 years, removing any given ancestor from your history would probably have no effect at all on your genes.

, but the odds of the same people being in the same places that far down the road when conditions have changed, less and less likely it looks like the other timeline.

Not necessarily, for much the same reason: Not every change is amplified by the passage of time. Any given event is the result of a whole constellation of causal factors, so changing one of those factors won't undo the rest, and thus the event could still happen, even if it occurred slightly differently. Some events are pivotal enough that changing them will create ripples that amplify outward and change everything, but others would end up getting cancelled out.

Although I agree it's implausible to postulate something like the Mirror Universe where you simultaneously have a history that's massively altered and individual life paths turning out to be remarkably the same. It should be either one or the other in that case.


I get it, just don't LIKE it, I guess. One, kinda a dumb 'wave the flag' sorta concept for a show, especially if you're going in knowing you'll likely never return to 'your' universe, so you're just saving a bunch of USA-like countries for other realities.

Except they're going for a Back to the Future/Quantum Leap model where there's a single timeline that's being modified, rather than separate parallels branching off. In that way of looking at things, it's assumed that the characters are still the same people, just with some changes to their memories and circumstances. That's not a physically realistic conceit, of course, but it's common in time-travel stories. It's pretty much the same model The Flash is using, and it looks like the Frequency series debuting in 90-odd minutes on The CW is using it as well.


Sam didn't care what happened to his 'original' timeline (despite the tagline about hoping his next leap takes him home). His actions were intentionally making changes, so he was never going to return to what he would consider home, it would be drastically different. Was there ever much description about what was really going on in his present?

Only in the novels. We rarely glimpsed the "present" in the show.


Entire mission only makes sense if something has gone somewhat horribly wrong, but don't recall that being the case.

It wasn't a "mission" in the sense of a deliberate choice. Like Tony Newman in The Time Tunnel, Sam leapt back in time prematurely to prove his theories under the threat of losing his government funding, and was stuck wandering through history as a result. But it became evident that some unspecified force -- often referred to as "God or fate or whatever" -- was guiding Sam's journeys and using him as an agent to fix history's mistakes and make people's lives better. I think the series finale suggested that Sam himself was subconsciously guiding his own journey, though I always suspected it was Ziggy the supercomputer.


Al seemed to be having a somewhat normal life, so messing with the timeline on that scale seems odd.

The scale was fairly subtle for the most part, since the show deliberately avoided the usual cliche (which Timeless eagerly embraces) of focusing on big, famous historical events, instead focusing on improving individual people's lives. As for Al, he remembered the original history and recognized the changes happening around him, according to the one or two episodes that showed that, and according to the novels.
 
It's actually a bit like an earlier NBC time-travel show, Quantum Leap. There, Sam's "mission" was specifically to change history in small-scale ways, to alter individual people's lives for the better, and it was occasionally theorized (at least in the tie-in novels) that the ultimate end goal of this was to create a better future overall. The show focused on Sam's end of the story and rarely showed the changes his actions caused uptime, but the novels by Ashley McConnell often addressed how the timeline was constantly shifting around the folks up at Project Quantum Leap. This is in a similar vein, although it's also an opposite one, since the heroes' mission is to prevent or minimize changes rather than causing them.

Quantum Leap's "future date" was in 1999 and, arguably, a more technologically advanced 1999 than what we really got. The "prototype" car Al drives could argued to having an interface similar to what's seen in cars *today* and has only been in higher end cars for the last decade or so. The fashion seen in the few times we visit the future/present and other futuristic aspects are mostly similar to what was typically thought to "be the future" at the time, glowing lights on things, bizarre fashions and such. The future we see in it is pretty much on-par with movies like Back to the Future 2's 2015.

So, QL's "present day" of 1999 was at least a decade ahead of the 1999 at least from a technological stand point. (Though, from checking on Wikipedia it's said the super-computer that controlled the time machine "ZIGGY" operated at a trillion flops; which is more powerful than even the best of home PCs, but present-day supercomputers laugh at it; even supercomputers in the actual 1999 were seeing that kind of performance and beyond. ZIGGY's storage memory was at 100 TB which is well beyond anything computers have, or need, today. Though this may be different for "supercomputers." I can't see needing 100 TB of system memory; it's possible this could mean 100 TB of storage space as it's common to confuse "memory" with "hard drive space.")

Anyway, there was an episode of QL where Sam was involved in a group centered around the President of the United States, John F. Kennedy. Sam believes he's there to save Kennedy's life but fails, but manages to save the life of Jackie O. Al reckons Sam was there to save her as she died in the original timeline and her living causes positive impacts on the future.

So, I take it that they were making these changes in the past to turn the "future"/"present" into *our* timeline.
 
Quantum Leap's "future date" was in 1999 and, arguably, a more technologically advanced 1999 than what we really got.

It usually is. The Jupiter 2 in Lost in Space was launched on an interstellar journey in 1997. A lot of older SF assumed we'd have settled the Solar System or even gone to the stars by the 1980s.

Anyway, there was an episode of QL where Sam was involved in a group centered around the President of the United States, John F. Kennedy. Sam believes he's there to save Kennedy's life but fails, but manages to save the life of Jackie O. Al reckons Sam was there to save her as she died in the original timeline and her living causes positive impacts on the future.

Yes, that was the Lee Harvey Oswald episode, and it was a deliberate departure from the show's usual avoidance of big historical events. Donald Bellisario (who had been acquainted with Oswald in the military) wrote it as a refutation of Oliver Stone's JFK and its absurd conspiracy theory (based largely on a "think tank report" that had been admitted as a hoax decades earlier), basing his version in the actual historical evidence confirming that Oswald acted alone. (And Sam wasn't in a "group" centered around JFK -- he actually leaped into Oswald, and lost himself in Oswald's personality for a significant part of the story, as a means for Bellisario to dramatize the documented events in Oswald's life, including his own encounter with the man.)


So, I take it that they were making these changes in the past to turn the "future"/"present" into *our* timeline.

No. That episode was a unique exception. Since it was the one time the show dealt with a real historical event, it needed to find a way to reconcile that with their premise -- four years old at that point -- that Sam couldn't leap away until he succeeded in changing something for the better. The idea that he changed history to the version we know was their way of resolving that conflict, but it only applied to that episode.

I mean, if the ultimate goal was to improve the future as much as possible, would our reality have really been the end result of that? That's a very Panglossian view.

Really, the show didn't care about the larger purpose of it all. This wasn't a show in the modern paradigm where everyone's obsessed with overarching plot arcs and conspiracies and endgames, but in the older paradigm where the larger "mission" was just a means to the end of telling an anthology-like series of standalone dramas about a hero helping a succession of guest characters deal with their personal problems. The higher cosmic stakes were beside the point, because it was a show about individual people and their stories.
 
... Sam wasn't in a "group" centered around JFK -- he actually leaped into Oswald, and lost himself in Oswald's personality for a significant part of the story...

That's what it was, thanks. I couldn't remember and didn't feel like looking it up, I just knew he was around in Kennedy's time or something or other. Didn't he leap into a Secret Service Agent or something near the end? I recall him seeing Jackie O in the hospital when Al tells him about the alteration made.

And while I personally feel Sam was making the timeline into "our" timeline I don't think it was all about it being a "better" timeline, sort of drawing back to my large tagent about computers. Because our technological advancements by 1999 weren't quite where QL's universe was. So the changes made by Sam, if we accept it was to make it into our timeline, would have a negative impact on out technological advancement. But if we're to accept that "God or Fate or Whatever" was trying to make it a "better" timeline then it *might* be argued that the Quantum Leap 1999/future isn't all that of an idealistic or good of one so that ours is, comparatively, better. Even though we're looking at a potential Donald Trump presidency. For all we know, given the general sci-fi depiction of the future from movies of that time), the QL "present" may be a dystopia.

But I never got the real impression that, outside of the exception with Jackie O, Sam was going through time making these changes in order to "make the world better" through big events and changes because, as you said, most of the changes he makes are pretty trivial (although, butterfly effect) on a global scale. If we accept the "God or Fate or Whatever" as being our idea of a Christian God it could be that He wasn't into making big changes and more about helping the individual, little, problems. Sort of why big, terrible, cataclysms happen even though supposedly "God" is powerful enough to stop them, yet many claim significant prayer saved the life of someone with a potentially terminal illness or injury, or helped someone recover from an irrecoverable injury.
 
But I never got the real impression that, outside of the exception with Jackie O, Sam was going through time making these changes in order to "make the world better" through big events and changes because, as you said, most of the changes he makes are pretty trivial (although, butterfly effect) on a global scale. If we accept the "God or Fate or Whatever" as being our idea of a Christian God it could be that He wasn't into making big changes and more about helping the individual, little, problems.

Yes, basically. The whole idea, as I said, was to get away from the Time Tunnel cliche of having time travelers always land in the middle of big, famous historical events and instead do a show that operated on a more personal scale. It could address larger social concerns like racism and sexism and child abuse and mental illness (although its one attempt to address homosexuality was misguidedly homophobic), but always in terms of how it affected individual lives. Again, the point of the show was those individual stories. The underlying purpose behind Sam's leaps wasn't narratively important, because it was just an excuse to drive the pseudo-anthology format of the show.
 
Just think we're kinda hand-waving over the butterfly effect portion, but I'm stuck on it being a way bigger factor than is usually accounted for (a conceit to reuse the same actors, I'll allow). Timeless even sort of shows that it's a big deal. Tweak the Hindenburg to blow up a couple hours later, few random people live that wouldn't have lived otherwise (no new deaths). Suddenly we've lost a sister, and whatever the mom was dying of originally, she no longer gets it.

Sure, the big headline events probably still mostly happen. Sure WWII didn't play out much differently, probably still land on the moon, all that good stuff. But over time, those minute changes should be huge. Same people born, but look different because conception time was different. Different couplings lead to large changes in population makeup. Interactions leading to deaths that wouldn't have happened, or to different people. An invention that doesn't happen, or happens earlier/later. just so many little tweaks that will have big changes as years go by and things play out more and more differently.

At the very least every time they return 'home', about half the people in the lab/facility ought to be different. And some of the times, there shouldn't be a lab at all.

I know, ignore it and just accept whatever they make up as the way it works, but it's just one I always struggle with in time travel premises. Which is my, IMO, they work better as a one-off event rather than a recurring series. Makes less and less logical sense every time they push the button. Other than something like QL, which is intentionally changing things and the end state doesn't matter as much. (except like the lab example, probably should have been more episodes where there's no AL, unless Ziggy is careful and able to only affect changes that will result in it's own existence. And yeah, know Al was safe in the chamber, but everything outside should have been in play)
 
Other than something like QL, which is intentionally changing things and the end state doesn't matter as much. (except like the lab example, probably should have been more episodes where there's no AL, unless Ziggy is careful and able to only affect changes that will result in it's own existence. And yeah, know Al was safe in the chamber, but everything outside should have been in play)

I think that, given the strong indications that some higher force was deliberately guiding Sam's leaps, it follows that it was taking care to ensure that Project Quantum Leap itself was protected. Indeed, that was the upshot of the first (only?) episode that actually showed the future changing in response to Sam's actions.
Al was trying to convince a Congressional committee to renew their funding, without success, but then Sam in the past helped a woman pass her bar exam (and, unusually, told her the truth about his identity and the Project), and it changed the present so that the woman was now in charge of the Congressional committee and agreed to renew the funding.
 
Are we forgetting "A Leap For Lisa", when Al WAS replaced by Edward St. John V (Roddy McDowall)? Sam either fixing/not-fixing what he was there to do deciding who his chamber-mate was (and if it was Ziggy or Alpha).
This is the one with a Commander Riker (Charles Rocket) and Lisa who was played by Terri Farrell.
 
My only issue with the show so far is the time machine hanging out in the open. How lucky will they be from now onward to keep landing in open hidden lands? But I guess if it worked on Seven Days, it wouldn't be too big an issue here.
 
They missed a good visual by having the team go back to the present and see a bunch of airships in the sky. The original Hindenburg explosion is often pointed-to as marking the abrupt end of the airship era, but I doubt this version of events (in which it is publicly known that the explosion is the result of a bomb) would have had the same effect.
 
I think the impracticality of it would've played a bigger role in airships dropping in use, even if you didn't fill it with the most combustible/explosive element in the universe airships aren't practical.
 
If they wrote this one off as a bomb, just meant it would have happened to another one sooner or later. Just a dangerous way to fly, so it was waiting for a place to happen. But goes again to how big a change to the future the small tweak to the one event would be. Maybe air ships last another 5 years, which totally changes who is where at what time, maybe messes with development/deployment of buses, aircraft, etc.

When you're doing personal stories with random nobodies, maybe you can 'get away' with more of the small life changes, but when you start messing with the big, high visibility events, even a minor change should have massive implications.
 
They missed a good visual by having the team go back to the present and see a bunch of airships in the sky. The original Hindenburg explosion is often pointed-to as marking the abrupt end of the airship era, but I doubt this version of events (in which it is publicly known that the explosion is the result of a bomb) would have had the same effect.

Not necessarily. I mean, it wasn't exactly unknown that hydrogen was dangerous. The Germans who built the Hindenburg had planned to fill it with helium, but at the time, only the US had the technology to produce/collect helium, and the US government refused to sell helium to the Germans because they didn't want Hitler to use it for conquest. So the Hindenburg disaster basically only happened because of politics. It would've certainly been possible to continue building helium-filled airships, and indeed we've had helium blimps ever since, just not in great abundance. It was the PR impact of the Hindenburg tragedy that killed airships, more than anything else.

Granted, though, in this case the death toll was just two people, only one of whom was an innocent, so it wouldn't have been perceived as such a great tragedy. But think about how panicky we got about air-travel safety in the wake of 9/11. Even if the Hindenburg's destruction had been due to a terrorist act, that still might've been bad enough PR to put an end to airships.
 
I was disappointed in the pilot. The pacing felt all wrong to me, WAY too fast. It was like the entire episode really should have been spread out over three or four, at least two. We got such minimal introduction to these people, so I didn't care about them much, making the tension about whether they live or make it back to the past seem hollow. Her sister doesn't exist anymore? Oh well, it's not like we knew her at all.

Seeing various times in history intrigues me, and I will give the second episode a shot, but the show would really have to improve character development quickly for me to stay invested.
 
I actually found tonight's episode pretty compelling. It was a really tough, morally challenging situation for the characters to be in, debating whether or not to save Lincoln, and the debate they had was quite effective and dramatic. Although the resolution was, inevitably, a bit of an anticlimax and an easy out, because of course they couldn't actually save Lincoln.

It looks like the formula will be to have the cold open be a re-enactment of the original historical event before Flynn goes back to change it. And it looks like ending up with a "close enough" version of history with some details altered will be pretty routine too.

I loved the paperweight bit.
 
Oh, yeah, I forgot this show was on already. I did indeed forget to set the DVR, and I missed tonight's episode. No regrets.
 
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