Spoilers Timeless: Season 1 on NBC

[Guy Gardener]

A devastating ripple did take place that destroyed and rebuilt time wrong.

Mission control is fine with that, and they are morons enough to send back more time travellers who are going to do it to them as well again.

 

[Christopher]

But then the fact that it is established as the ultimate No-No means we're going to see it happen at some point, likely in a scenario where this is the only solution to a situation where the stakes are that high. This is a common trope in fiction, like in the original Ghostbusters movie where they make a point of mentioning throughout the movie "don't cross the streams" when that is in fact what they do in the film's climax.

I just don't see it as being that kind of trope. As I said, the reason for it is not simply as an arbitrary plot gimmick like crossing the streams -- it's there because it makes the storytelling better. There is less drama, less tension, if the heroes can use time travel as an easy out to undo their mistakes. In most fiction, the protagonists have only one chance to avert a crisis and they have to live with the consequences of their failures. Time travel can too easily be used as a cheat to get out of consequences, to create easy outs for problems that shouldn't have easy outs, and that is bad writing. So it is desirable to have a reason why the characters can't just have infinite do-overs like in some video game. That's why a lot of time-travel stories have rules like this. It's far from unique to this show. At the very least, stories that do allow do-overs generally make it a complication rather than an easy out, like in Groundhog Day.

What you're arguing is that the producers care more about playing silly games with time travel gimmicks than they do about preserving the dramatic and emotional stakes in their narrative. In other words, what you're arguing is that you expect them to be bad writers. I'm hopeful that that isn't the case.

 

[Snaploud]

They establish a rather uninteresting male lead with an obvious motive to change the past which should really immediately disqualify him for even being considered for a time travel job. Yet everyone insists they are 'The best people for the job'.

Yeah, that was really weird. Their one job is to prevent time from re-written, and we already have a character who is just fine with saving a random blonde woman who looks like his dead wife. It would have been nice if that actually had some direct consequences, though. She died anyway, so we can't say that saving her is the reason why the future has been altered.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, that was really weird. Their one job is to prevent time from re-written, and we already have a character who is just fine with saving a random blonde woman who looks like his dead wife.

I don't think that's weird at all. A ton of stories involve people being told they have to follow the rules and let someone die only to decide to break the rules and save them instead, putting humanity and compassion above cold big-picture equations. That's one of the perennial tropes of fiction. It's certainly been done in a number of time travel stories before, from Isaac Asimov's The End of Eternity to Doctor Who's "The Fires of Pompeii" and "The Girl Who Died."

It would have been nice if that actually had some direct consequences, though. She died anyway, so we can't say that saving her is the reason why the future has been altered.

That part of the story wasn't meant to be what changed history; Flynn's actions were what did that. That part was meant to help establish Wyatt's character and what motivated him. I think that modern arc-based TV has gotten us so obsessed with plot mechanics that we forget that character, theme, and setting are also vital parts of storytelling. Not everything has to be about advancing the plot from one beat to the next. After all, why should we care about the plots if we aren't invested emotionally in the characters?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Rufus has to go because a later version of Rufus has already left evidence of his existence in the past, such as maybe his corpse in a time machine that Mason never invented, but found.

The difference in appearance between the two machines, is ridiculous, and might indicate more than a decade of a small team custom building a chassis in complete secrecy, unless the so called prototype was found at the bottom of a well it had been stuck in for 200 years.

 

[sojourner]

The prototype was missing the nice outer shell, that's all. Like a a car with the fenders removed.

 

[Trekker4747]

I'd much rather their reason for not repeating a mission having to do with concerns about a paradox. The whole "the same matter can't occupy the same space" nonsense (which is what they were implying here without actually saying it) is just so much, well, nonsense. At no point whatsoever would the same matter be occupying the same space even if you shook hands with temporal duplicate. I mean, that's like saying that if you, right now, were to touch your index finger to your other index finger, the universe would spontaneously explode for the exact same (and very stupid) reason.

If you don't want to have an easy out with time travel like that, just come up with something that actually makes some amount of sense. A devastating temporal ripple that will tear about your present/future and put the entire project at risk. The paradox winking you out of existence, thereby destroying every bit of work you've done or will do. Impossible to "cross the streams" created by the time travel device. Wormholes collapsing on themselves if they intersect, sending you hurling into netherspace for all eternity. Whatever. Just anything other than the same-space malarkey. Please!

Moreover, if you were to go back in time and shake hands with yourself, unless that time jump was fairly short it wouldn't be the "same matter" since the matter of our bodies is constantly being destroyed/dying and being replaced. It takes your skin a little over a month to entirely replace itself. So after a month touching yourself wouldn't be "the same matter."

I too hope they go with something closer to it just creating too much of a paradox. As for sending another team back, it seems they threw this team together pretty quickly, maybe its a matter of there's no one else to send? Why let more people know about this secret project? (The more people who know the more likely it is for it to be leaked out.) And then just plain not wanting to send back more people and potentially make things worse. What then? Send back even *more*? It's probably best to not pile-on and just deal with the consequences. Besides, from the project leaders' point of view nothing has changed.

Which, again, sort of brings up the usual time-travel discrepancy of how can the past be changed to begin with to give the characters a chance to do something about it, and realize the change while at the same time the past be changed and for characters to not be aware of it. It's problems like these that makes time-travel stories so hard to tell because you easily fall into holes like this. You need both the "ticking clock" and "repercussions for failure."

And maybe I missed some expositional dialogue by why send them back so close to the time the other guy went back? They say they don't know where the guy went but, when so..... Doesn't this mean they have to go back quite a good deal of time in order to find him? It's not clear, to me, if the time machine moves spatially (beyond needing to move itself with the cosmic movement of the universe and all of its components over time; we'll say what ever connection between points in time the machine uses to travel moves with everything) as well as temporally, but if it can doesn't that make it pretty damn hard to know what he's going back to change if he has the whole planet (or in this case all of America since he's specifically targeting American history for whatever reason) as well as all of history to choose from? And if it can't move spatially seems to me that limits the things he can go back and change without having to travel on arrival, still making it hard to find him.

I'd accept it if they just said they had a *whatever* Database that can compare "original recorded history" with "temporally local history" to give them a destination in all 4 dimensions, it's just a matter of getting to him and stopping him because neither is 100% accurate; they can get to within a range before but not the exact moment. Because knowing exactly when is sort of convenient. And, I dunno, aren't these people pretty much always destined to fail while at the same time he is destined to fail? For the story to continue they can never capture him because then the series would be over. At the same time he can never fully succeed because then the series would be over, he accomplished his goal and has no need for further meddling and presumably his changes were disastrous enough to prevent any attempts at stopping him from occurring; meaning the dis-invention of time travel. Which is a paradox because if time-travel is never invented then he can't go back in time to prevent it from being invented and...

Oh dear, now I've gone cross-eyed.


----

The prototype was just that: a prototype. And the prototype of any invention is always going to look a lot rougher and less refined than the first iteration of it, or a "production line" model. (Thanks, Knight Rider's KARR for that way of thinking. ) When something is invented it's not like it comes out perfect in function and appearance the first time around. Hell, the DeLorean was a "prototype" of sorts as it had exposed wiring and other components that could be damaged just from ordinary use of the vehicle and as well as an inefficiency considering all of the switches and buttons it had on the overhead panel and other areas inside the cabin. Had Doc had the will, time, and money after the DeLorean was successful he likely would have bought a second DeLorean and built a final version of the time-machine that was refined, the wiring under the body panels or shrouded, refined circuitry and electronics (possibly using future technology) to prevent the need for all of the switches and such inside the dash. A better-built and less prone to failure time read-out display, etc. He already improved the power source on it.

On the "can't go back to meet yourself" thing. I don't think its strictly a "don't cross the streams" sort of thing where its mentioned purely for it to be broken, like the underwire in the bra was mentioned specifically so we'd know she had it for it to be used to pick the lock, but I don't think it was mentioned purely as a clumsy way to give themselves an excuse to not have infinite chances at trying to "solve a case", as it were.

I do think it is a "rule" that will be broken at some point down the line. If the series takes off and lasts for several seasons it's a rule they're going to break sooner or later if they don't already have one planned with her meeting a future self or something and the "the guy didn't come back in one piece" thing was just told to the team to discourage meeting themselves. They just don't do multiple missions because it just makes a complicated, dangerous, situation even more complicated and dangerous.

 

[Christopher]

Moreover, if you were to go back in time and shake hands with yourself, unless that time jump was fairly short it wouldn't be the "same matter" since the matter of our bodies is constantly being destroyed/dying and being replaced. It takes your skin a little over a month to entirely replace itself. So after a month touching yourself wouldn't be "the same matter."

It wouldn't make any difference from a particle-physics standpoint anyway, because all particles of a given type are identical. So there's no physically meaningful difference between a proton interacting with its future self and a proton interacting with a different proton. There's no real-physics reason why a single entity can't interact with its own past self; indeed, that's the archetypal example of the Novikov self-consistency theory.

As I've been saying, rules like that in fiction are created for narrative and dramatic reasons, to explain why time travel can't be used as an easy out to solve the characters' problems. It's the same reason Star Trek established that transporters can't beam through shields, to explain why characters can't be easily whisked out of any danger. It's the reason Charmed had its rule against using magic for personal gain, to explain why the Charmed Ones couldn't just enchant away all their personal problems.

And maybe I missed some expositional dialogue by why send them back so close to the time the other guy went back? They say they don't know where the guy went but, when so..... Doesn't this mean they have to go back quite a good deal of time in order to find him?

As I recall, they said that the heroes' time machine is an earlier prototype that was intended to be used as a "lifeboat" for rescuing the main machine's crew if something went wrong, and that its navigational system is linked to the main machine's, which is how they were able to track it. So it may only be capable of following the main machine to the same general point in space and time, rather than being able to navigate indepenently.

And, I dunno, aren't these people pretty much always destined to fail while at the same time he is destined to fail? For the story to continue they can never capture him because then the series would be over.

That's true of pretty much every quest-based series ever. Richard Kimble can't catch the one-armed man, the Minnow castaways can't get off the island, the Robinsons can't get back to Earth, Dr. Banner can't find his cure, Sam Beckett can never leap home, etc.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I guess you missed all the parts talking about how rotten American history was if you weren't white.

I guess you missed the subtext "...But things are all awesome now." It's a way of unloading cultural evils onto the past to praise ourselves for completely overcoming them. I bet when they go back to the 15th century, Christopher Columbus is a pioneer hero, rather than a slaving mass murderer who cut off people's hands and made them wear them around their neck for not mining enough gold.

I'm not saying that other time travel shows don't use the same plot contrivances. But the more suspension of disbelief you ask of the audience, the higher your standards are to have good writing. This show asked a huge amount of suspension of disbelief and had mediocre-at-best TV writing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

An unprepared b-team of fuck ups stepping up during earth's darkest hour?

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Genre TV et all, god forbid Time travel TV all start the same, and then very quickly after they've burnt through the tropes, they either do something clever or they get cancelled.

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[Christopher]

I guess you missed the subtext "...But things are all awesome now." It's a way of unloading cultural evils onto the past to praise ourselves for completely overcoming them.

Saying things are better is not the same as saying they're perfect. After all, the whole point of social commentary in science fiction is to hold a mirror up to the present. Telling stories about the injustices of the past, or of a conjectural future or alternate world, are a way of encouraging people to recognize the similar injustices that are around them in real life.

I bet when they go back to the 15th century, Christopher Columbus is a pioneer hero, rather than a slaving mass murderer who cut off people's hands and made them wear them around their neck for not mining enough gold.

I doubt that's a reading that would be seen as credible today, though it was of course quite common in past decades.

Still, we do have a recent example of something similar, namely Doctor Who's hagiographic portrait of Winston Churchill, who was actually a hideously racist imperialist who advocated exterminating "savage" native populations with poison gas and whose sledgehammer policies in the Middle East did a lot to help create that region's modern problems.

 

[The Wormhole]

That's why a lot of time-travel stories have rules like this.

And most usually violate that rule at least once.

What you're arguing is that the producers care more about playing silly games with time travel gimmicks than they do about preserving the dramatic and emotional stakes in their narrative. In other words, what you're arguing is that you expect them to be bad writers. I'm hopeful that that isn't the case.

In all honesty, the pilot was written pretty badly. Even ignoring the checklist of time travel tropes, you got the first five minutes or so just consisting of a rush job of "shit's gone down, here's our team to save the day," along with a pointless reason for having the female lead take her shirt off. This show has yet to provide me a reason to think the writers aren't bad writers.

 

[Christopher]

Now that I think about it, the whole "your underwire bra can save us" bit seems very familiar. I can't remember where, but I think it's been done before.

And yes, the jury's still out on the quality of the writing, but I just don't think it's a constructive use of mental energy to expect the worst.

 

[Galileo7]

Now that I think about it, the whole "your underwire bra can save us" bit seems very familiar. I can't remember where, but I think it's been done before.

Yes, it was used in some other series too. I can't remember either.

 

[Aragorn]

Now that I think about it, the whole "your underwire bra can save us" bit seems very familiar. I can't remember where, but I think it's been done before.

There was a woman in Germany who was hit by a hunter's stray bullet which deflected off her metal underwire.

Same story happened to a woman who saw burglars breaking into her neighbor's house in Detroit and they shot at her.

 

[Scout101]

I'll probably watch a few, but had a pretty decent "gonna be cancelled" vibe to it. Just seemed kinda hollow and 'Meh', nothing really overly catchy aside from the history-porn visuals.

Even the premise is sorta odd. How do you chase a time traveler? I guess they're using the 'San Dimas time' thing mentioned, so they have a little time after he goes back to chase him before he can make whatever change? OK if that's the setup, just don't much like it personally. From any POV that makes any sense, once the bad guy goes into the past, he's had weeks/months/years to make the change, and you're already living in the result. Being able to chase doesn't really work for me, so seeing everyone keep coming back to the present, take a nap, and then chase him again is off-putting to me.

That, and whole thing is doomed to failure. They can't go back anywhere they already went, so everything they do is permanent. They've already skewed themselves into an alternate timeline, and it will be worse every time they travel. Basically exactly the problem in VOY's Year of Hell episode, and begging for the same reset button ending. Every thing they change will break a couple other things, so on and so forth. We'll see at least one alternate present every episode, and should never be the same one. Timeline they left from the first time is already dead and buried, they'll never see it again without a reset button.

And even with that argument, they shouldn't be jumping around, but slowly going further and further back. Can't undo a screwup in 1930's by being in the 50's. Can't really fix it in the 20's other than to steer away from it further, but it'll just screw up 2016 even worse... I just don't get the end game here.

Do we know whether we're playing by alternate timeline or overwritten timeline rules? It seems like the latter, but it makes the pilot already a terminal screwup, no? Maybe some weeks we see Amy, some we don't, but it'll be hard to keep things so close to happening the same way.

Same sort of problem that made me generally hate the Mirror Universe stories. At best, it only works at ONE point in time, and probably only if the delta between timelines happened very near-term. Too many coincidences and similarities; actual changes would have HUGE impacts to who lives/dies/even exists, conception timing being off means even if the person is born, not really the same person and may not look the same (more like a brother), etc. And to then go 100 years forward and imagine that still basically looked like our crew despite an extra 100 years of divergence? Ugh. Fun to play evil dress-up, but a dumb concept once it got reused.

 

[Scout101]

As for the bra lock pick: remembered it done on Friends (locked out of a taxi at a rest stop), google says it was used on Scandal as well. Definitely feels used, so sure there were more instances I didn't immediately find, but those were the first two that came up.

 

[Trekker4747]

And most usually violate that rule at least once.

In all honesty, the pilot was written pretty badly. Even ignoring the checklist of time travel tropes, you got the first five minutes or so just consisting of a rush job of "shit's done down, here's our team to save the day," along with a pointless reason for having the female lead take her shirt off. This show has yet to provide me a reason to think the writers aren't bad writers.

Agreed, the pilot was *very* sloppy and reeked of the expositional things it needed to establish and setting up the various elements of the series. Hopefully future episodes will be a little smoother not having to deal with setting everyone up.

-----------------

Yeah, I remember the underwire lock-pick from "Friends." (IIRC Joey was using to get into Phoebe's taxi.)

In regards to the "San Dimas Time" thing even in the movie from which it is named the concept of it doesn't make much sense. Bill and Ted literally arrived at a point in time minutes before they were to leave. So..... why can't they simply just stay there? Why do they have to leave and go into tomorrow?

 

[Scout101]

Yeah, I wouldn't think Bill and Ted is the best example of time travel logic to steal from

Honestly, Terminator is a decent way to look at it. The more you mess with time, the more effed up you make it. Things seem to want to generally happen, but with 2 parties trying to fight through it, they've messed it up beyond recognition, created dozens of alternate timelines, and no one can really sort things out. Definitely no fixing it and getting back to a prime universe state, though, irrevocably dorked up.

If you travel to the past, you're abandoning your timeline. Just gotta make sure you're good with living in whatever alternate take you get back to, and that maybe it's not too much off from your original one. In this instance, minor tweak to history, you lost a sister, and your mother is healthy again. Chalk it up as close to a win, and bury the time machine

 

[Trekker4747]

Honestly, other than the "San Dimas Time" thing, I think Bill and Ted pretty much got time-travel "right" pretty much spot-on from a logical way of thinking and the Circle-K parking lot scene is a great example of it when Bill and Ted show up from the "future" and interact with the "present" Bill and Ted, all of this happening before Bill and Ted initially leave. There's even a little play on this with Ted reminding himself to wind his watch (seriously, who the fuck wears a manual watch even in 1988?) even though we know he's destined to forget, making them feel like they have more time than they really do.

In the beginning of the movie there's talk of Ted's dad missing his keys and we find out later in the movie that at some point beyond the events of the bulk of the film Bill and Ted go into the past, steal the keys, and leave them near the police station for themselves to find to break out the historical figures. It's a very nice, "closed loop" theory.