Spoilers Timeless: Season 1 on NBC

[Christopher]

Flynn absolutely knew what it would take to get each member of the team to go along with him. His motivations were very believable While I liked his idea that he didn't like what he had become, it wasn't believable that he was going to do all of this to get his family back, see them once, and then walk out. But, maybe that's what he really thought at the moment. The realization that his family would think he is a monster if they knew what he had done.

I'm reminded of the Operative in Serenity -- he does horrible things to protect what he sees as a benevolent and enlightened society, but he believes those acts deprive him of the right to live in that society.

Anyone else think they should've just taken the son to our present? That way they would not have to kill him but also not worry about him following in his father's footsteps! I thought Lucy was going to suggest that in the confrontation at the end. I'm sure Agent Christopher could've arranged a foster home.

I thought she might suggest that Flynn stay in the past and be a father to the boy, teaching him a better set of values. Although now that I write that down, I can see a couple of maor problems: One, Flynn isn't much of a role model, and two, the boy probably wouldn't be too kindly disposed to the man who killed his real father.

Going forward, I wonder where this will take things. I had hypothesized earlier in this thread that getting rid of Rittenhouse without drastically affecting history would probably be impossible. After all, if Rittenhouse is this very powerful organization that pulls the strings through out the life of the US, if you remove Rittenhouse, the effects should be freaking huge! It's simple logic, large effects are the definition of a powerful organization. I thought the way the story was going to end was going to be on a cliffhanger with a tease where they return to the present and it's completely different in a WTF way! I guess we'll have to and see.

My guess is that it won't change much. I bet the son was the real mastermind behind Rittenhouse all along. David may have had the initial ideas, but I bet it was John who really put the organization together and set it on its course. After all, having him be a boy during the Revolution opens the door for the character to return as an adult in episodes set later in the timeline.

I really enjoyed this last episode. But I have one problem. If the Rittenhouse in this episode is supposed to be David Rittenhouse, I do not recall him ever having a son. I believe the series may have committed a major historical blooper.

Ah, but if I'm right and John is the real mastermind, maybe he edited himself out of the history books!

I hadn't realized there was a real David Rittenhouse. It seems the real guy was an astronomer, clockmaker, and inventor, and the first director of the US Mint -- sort of a junior Ben Franklin, but less involved in politics. Kind of an odd choice to base such an evil character on. So giving him a son is perhaps the least revisionist thing they've done.

 

[Mr Awe]

My guess is that it won't change much. I bet the son was the real mastermind behind Rittenhouse all along. David may have had the initial ideas, but I bet it was John who really put the organization together and set it on its course. After all, having him be a boy during the Revolution opens the door for the character to return as an adult in episodes set later in the timeline.

That's a really good guess. In fact, seeing the actions of these crazed people bent on anarchy (Flynn and our team) might actually make John want to work harder to obtain his father's dreams! In his eyes, he may perceive a stronger need for behind the scenes control than ever.

I guess I would be a bit disappointed if the future didn't change much. Although, I'm not sure if the series' time travel rules are set up such in such a way that they can change history and then undo it. Rittenhouse is dead and our team can't really undo that. Your ideas about not much change and a future appearance by an older John probably do make more sense.

But, drat, I was curious what the present would've been like without Rittenhouse. That could've been really interesting!

Mr Awe

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I hadn't realized there was a real David Rittenhouse. It seems the real guy was an astronomer, clockmaker, and inventor, and the first director of the US Mint -- sort of a junior Ben Franklin, but less involved in politics.

I guess I left my cloaking device on again and you missed my post from December 6th:

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/timeless-season-1-on-nbc.284239/page-20#post-11849435

 

[Christopher]

I guess I left my cloaking device on again and you missed my post from December 6th:

No, I just have a poor memory.

 

[Snaploud]

Yeah, I agree the son is likely the main driving force behind Rittenhouse as an organization. If it weren't for how time travel has been portrayed on this show up to now: I would assume this was all some sort of boot-strap paradox in which the death of his father at the hands of a time traveler was what made John decide to fulfill David's vision (while also having his organization be on the look-out for any research into time tech).

Side note: I'm still not clear on why Rittenhouse left a key to a special vault that contained a letter from Bennedict Arnold. What is the point of that vault if not to give future time-travelers ideas about changing the past?

 

[intrinsical]

I still think there is still a strong possibility for a bootstrap paradox. Especially if the team or Flynn encounters an adult John Rittenhouse. Even if that does not happen, I believe continued encounters with members of Rittenhouse over the centuries will eventually make Rittenhouse realize its time travelers meddling in their affairs. Once they put two and two together, Rittenhouse would want its own time machine too.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Timeless doesn't do Paradoxes.

Our heroes are from a distant timeline that we haven't seen since the pilot.

Every week then end up in a new divergent time-line more different than the one they called home last week.

 

[FreezeC77]

I really enjoyed this last episode. But I have one problem. If the Rittenhouse in this episode is supposed to be David Rittenhouse, I do not recall him ever having a son. I believe the series may have committed a major historical blooper.

They alter history by their actions. They had previously traveled to 1756 which was 24 years before the time the fall finale takes place. Things that they or Flynn did in 1756 could have caused Rittenhouse to sire a son about a decade later.

I am expecting a future episode where they stop Rittenhouse and find out the present is really messed up. Likely returning to a nonexistent time travel base (No Rittenhouse to financially bail out Mason) and Lucy returns home to find out she never existed.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I loved the latest episode with Benedict Arnold. Nice to get some background on Rittenhouse. It was also interesting to see Flynn and the team being forced to work together and agreeing on a similar goal (ending rittenhouse) but disagreeing on the methods.

The scene where Rittenhouse is examining Lucy's face and commenting on her jaw structure, reminded me a lot of the Nazi belief that physical anatomy determined your "racial superiority". I am sure that comparison was not accidental. It is pretty clear that Rittenhouse believed that some people are inherently superior and thus meant to rule and control while others are inferior and meant to serve.

 

[Mr Awe]

They alter history by their actions. They had previously traveled to 1756 which was 24 years before the time the fall finale takes place. Things that they or Flynn did in 1756 could have caused Rittenhouse to sire a son about a decade later.

I am expecting a future episode where they stop Rittenhouse and find out the present is really messed up. Likely returning to a nonexistent time travel base (No Rittenhouse to financially bail out Mason) and Lucy returns home to find out she never existed.

For the Fall finale, I thought they were going to return to the present at the end of the episode and have a WTF tease moment along these lines as the cliffhanger.

Mr Awe

 

[Photoman15]

...returning to a base where Ann McGregor, Tony Newman and Doug Phillips are running the place.

 

[Ed Sanders]

...returning to a base where Ann McGregor, Tony Newman and Doug Phillips are running the place.

Or be greeted by a artificial intelligence named Ziggy...

 

[sojourner]

...returning to a base where Ann McGregor, Tony Newman and Doug Phillips are running the place.

Or Clarence Clemens, Grace Slick and Fee Waybill.

 

[Degra1]

Flynn should have gone back to 1780 in the first episode. Don't understand him tinkering with these other visits rather than going straight to what he believed was the source

I also found it a bit sloppy that Flynn goes off the rails when he didn't get the son. I didnt buy into that. It was almost too extreme a reaction. For all he knew. Killing rittenhouse could have sufficiently alter the timeline in an impactful way. He wouldn't know until he returned to the present to study the changes

Rittenhouse already told them that there were others involved and the organization would survive without him. They should have ransacked his room and house looking for leads on these other people. And he could also track down the son. He couldn't have gotten that far away. Kinda stupid just grabbing Lucy and leaving such a pivotal Time period to the creation of rittenhouse that once he leaves he can't ever return to to do any of these things

I also am sooo tired of the writers having characters not asking questions when the opportunity arises. This has been a trend since LOST. Here's an idea instead of worrying so much about dragging out the mystery they should just lay it all out and move forward from there. Lucy should have asked Flynn on several occasions more about rittenhouse, how he got the journal etc etc

I will say Armin made for a chilling dangerous figure that in his brief appearance made Rittenhouse a real threat in a way the preceding nine episodes never did. I was also happy that rittenhouse was an all new character--so many of these mystery shows decide to make one character turn out to be a character we already met. I was half expecting Lucy's dad to be rittenhouse or some such thing.

I'm still not sure about the series. I was hoping it would be more Quantum Leap than recent mystery puzzle shows. I'd like if they got rid of Rufus. He's pretty bland. This episode did make Agent Christopher interesting after the previous episodes made her nothing more than a cypher. Although I do question her handing over the flash drive for Lucy to keep in the pod now seeing as she has no reason to believe that this current timeline they exist in is identical to the original timeline in terms of her family. Lucy never met agent Christopher's family so she wouldn't know if her wife was always her wife and her daughter was always her daughter before all the timeline changes over the preceding nine episodes

 

[FreezeC77]

Timeless doesn't do Paradoxes.

Our heroes are from a distant timeline that we haven't seen since the pilot.

Every week then end up in a new divergent time-line more different than the one they called home last week.

There is one thing which may contradict that. Flynn has a journal written by Lucy which she hasnt written yet and which has guided him to certain times.

So that does leave a paradox possibility as the only other scenario is Lucy and the team traveled into the past and never returned, but changed things so much that everything got delayed until a further point in the timeline.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Our Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt arrive in a new alien time line every week, that a different indigenous Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt left hours earlier, who we never met, who arrive in a new timeline, that a different Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt left, who we also never met.

There was a Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt who grew up in a world with an extra Bond movie, and when they left to chase Flynn, a different Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt returned who belong to us, that had never seen that movie.

 

[Christopher]

Flynn should have gone back to 1780 in the first episode. Don't understand him tinkering with these other visits rather than going straight to what he believed was the source

He couldn't. He didn't get the information about David Rittenhouse until he obtained the key from Bonnie & Clyde last week and used it to open the clock where the secret message was hidden. That new information changed his plans and made him believe he could achieve his goal in one move.

I also found it a bit sloppy that Flynn goes off the rails when he didn't get the son. I didnt buy into that. It was almost too extreme a reaction. For all he knew. Killing rittenhouse could have sufficiently alter the timeline in an impactful way. He wouldn't know until he returned to the present to study the changes

Flynn is willing to change centuries of history, eradicate the entire USA, and potentially kill millions of people just because he lost his wife and son. That's already too extreme a reaction. It doesn't get much more extreme than that. If he had any sense of moderation, this series wouldn't even be happening.

Although I do question her handing over the flash drive for Lucy to keep in the pod now seeing as she has no reason to believe that this current timeline they exist in is identical to the original timeline in terms of her family.

This version of Agent Christopher doesn't care about the original timeline, since that isn't the timeline she knows. This isn't about bookkeeping or some dispassionate calculation about the "right" version of history, it's about her love for her family as she knows and remembers them now.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They should have just brought the kid with them, back to the Future.

Why invent timetravel, when it's easier to trap a time traveller, and steal their shit?

All you have to do is "create" a deeply historical moment, and then keep an eye out for weirdness.

Killing a President, will usually button that down.

 

[Ed Sanders]

Our Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt arrive in a new alien time line every week, that a different indigenous Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt left hours earlier, who we never met, who arrive in a new timeline, that a different Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt left, who we also never met.

There was a Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt who grew up in a world with an extra Bond movie, and when they left to chase Flynn, a different Lucy, Rufus and Wyatt returned who belong to us, that had never seen that movie.

True...the two Marty McFlys scenario.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which is being covered in the current storyline in the back to the Future comic book.

Marty is actually concerned that his girlfriend Jennifer isn't really his girlfriend, and that it might be "wrong" to continue dating her, since she is mistaking him for some other dude that looks just like him.

You know, like that time Sisko went to the mirror universe and let mirror Dax go all the way with him.