Time To Come Out...

[ichab]

I also think Roddenberry was a lot of things but NOT a visionary, his vision of the future is completely uninspired. It's a utopia, whoopdeedoo, that concept is thousands of years old. "What if everyone was nice to each other and I could get everything I want" is an idea I had as a child ... for selfish reasons but it comes kinda close to Star Trek, it's hardly an original idea so I dislike how Roddenberry is treated by some as this great thinker.

I never understood the hero worship of him either. The show was his idea, but so many characters and concepts were created by other people. He stole royalties from Alaxander Courage by writing lyrics for the opening them which were never used. Most of the writers for the show left because gene would rewrite their work for no reason other than to add his name to their work and cut into their profits .He basically abandoned the show after the second season so that he could work on a movie script. The movie failed and after the slow yawn fest that was TMP, was reduced to a consultant role for all future movies. During the seventies he would attend conventions and try to take credit for everything and pretend he invented every single concept on the show. To top it off he was screwing around with Nichele Nichols and Majel Barret while still married to his first wife. Hardly a person deserving of praise..

I also dislike how parts of the fandom act like Star Trek is this super special and unique franchise that invented the concept of not being racist and whatnot.

The preachiness DID get old and you saw some of that in TNG. Clearly by that point Rodenberry was believing his own hype with the constant disdain for late twentieth century. I actually turned the first episode off when Picard made his dismissive "costumes like that" remark. I thought a guy wearing a drab one piece looked silly trying to mock a Marine Corp uniform. I didn't come back to it until BOBW.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I never understood the hero worship of him either. [...] Hardly a person deserving of praise..

Gene Roddenberry was a self-made Man, that's what's so noteworthy about him. He was a World War II pilot and a street cop, so he had balls. And he pursued his dreams and made them happen, because he was driven to succeed. Those are qualities that I, personally, admire in anyone. What's more, he started the fire that was the worldwide phenomenon of STAR TREK, regardless of how much of it he contributed, or didn't. There would've never been a STAR TREK, had he not come up with the concept and the franchise still leans heavily upon his legacy. As far as cheating on a spouse, or whatever else like that, I certainly wouldn't do it. It's not in my nature. But I understand that it happens and that beautiful women give it up to Men who have a lot of clout and money, Nice & Easy. It's not uncommon, at all, and to judge GR for it, is kind of unfair in my view. Both he and his show entertained and inspired the globe and that's not an overstatement. I should achieve so much, in my lifetime ...

 

[Maurice]

Having seen many actual production documents, memos, treatments, and draft teleplays from TOS, I don't think it's accurate that Roddenberry rewrote scripts willy nilly just to get a cut. A lot of those scripts NEEDED a staff writer to make them work, and it wasn't just Roddenberry who did it: Coon and Fontana did their fare share of rewrites and revisions of other people's work. That's not to say Gene never abused that privilege, but he certainly didn't make as much of a habit of it as some of his detractors claim.

 

[Starbreaker]

You know what I hate? Waking Moments. That's the worst episode of Voyager by far. Even as a teenager I knew it was goofy as hell. Chakotay tapping the back of his hand like a moron.

 

[galad2003]

A lot of what people are saying is not "coming out" and a lot of people felt the same.

One thing I think is different is I didn't hate Lwaxana Troi's character. When I was younger I did, because she was written to be annoying. But then when I watched her on TNG as an adult I realized she was just a confident, mature woman who was comfortable with her sexuality but who was also lonely. My teenage self thought she was embarrassing but my 40 year old self understands her character much better and finds her less annoying. We just couldn't handle a self confident woman in the 90's.

 

[mos6507]

I don't think Lwaxana was confident at all. That was only a front. She's more of a Norma Desmond Sunset Blvd. type (or Zsa Zsa Gabor).

If she were really that confident she would not feel compelled to falsely project Picard's desire for her. She'd be able to deal with the fact that not all men desired her. She needed to keep accusing the men around her of interest again and again to boost her self-esteem. She fails the Bechtel test terribly by virtue of her self-esteem revolving solely on her female equivalent of a notch-count and the constant boasting she did over it.

 

[mos6507]

Hardly a person deserving of praise..

While I agree with most of your critiques, I'd say that some have overcompensated by trying to portray him as some sort of singular monster when in reality showbiz people (and sports figures and politicians and heck, even you or I) rarely lead lives worthy of high praise. Most of us are some form of walking contradiction in which we have something valuable to contribute to the world and yet at the same time we may exhibit hyopcrisy or self-destructive behaviors. Look at the recent suicides of Chris Cornell and Chester Bennington or the fact that Carrie Fisher was found with drugs in her system in her autopsy. Everyone's gotta sort of grow up and make peace with the fact that the people who make our entertainment are flawed, sometimes very deeply. It's too much to ask to expect them to be saints in order to justify appreciating their work. People should neither blindly idolize nor marginalize these people's achievements.

 

[galad2003]

How do we know Picard didn't desire her? She can reads minds. Maybe she caught him mentally checking her out and he was too repressed/embarrassed to admit it. I think we have all at one point checked someone out and then quickly changed our minds. I can see this happening especially like Picard. He is repressed because he thinks he as to behave a certain way as captain and to have a telepath read his mind and share that in front of the crew he refused to admit it. Then the way she behaved just killed any physical attraction he might have felt quickly.

Anyway, now that I am older I can see where the character was centered around issues older people go through so my younger self definitely didn't get the character. being 40 and divorced I am much more direct when it comes to dating and sex. So I get that part of her. I can also see how someone her age is lonely and it would cause her to act that way. years ago i found her annoying, now I am much more sympathetic.

 

[Tenacity]

Laxanna came off as insecure, and over compensating.

 

[mos6507]

How do we know Picard didn't desire her

Because those scenes were very framed as obvious comic-relief. I'm sorry you didn't catch that.

That's kind of the whole "thing" about her character. Full Betazoids are supposed to be telepathic so she uses that reputation to "suggest" that a guy has the hots for her when in reality she's the one who wants the guy. It's nothing but a form of aggressive flirtation. It might as well be Mae West talking about whether something's in the guy's pocket or he's just happy to see her. When West used that joke, more often than not the guy was in fact NOT aroused, but just by sexualizing the conversation, that might change. You know, the typical plausible deniability routine where women pursue while pretending (unconvincingly) to be the one being pursued.

You know how they say you can't explain a joke? That's really what we're dealing with here. It's a joke that you missed and therefore take it as serious drama. Also remember that humor and tragedy go hand in hand.

He is repressed

It's possible for Picard to be a stuffed shirt and yet not harboring feelings for her in particular. The woman who would be a better candidate for that would be Beverly Crusher.

being 40 and divorced I am much more direct when it comes to dating and sex.

I don't want to offend anyone but other than a certain 4-letter fetish, women turn heads less and less as they get older. That's just a sad fact of life. Struggling with fading attractiveness is her true motivation. Perhaps if they had cast Marissa Tomei type as Lwaxana then the character would have taken a whole new meaning but Majel was not cast due to being an ageless beauty.

I think Dax was closer to the unrestrained sexual creature archetype.

 

[galad2003]

Well I guess this wasn't a safe topic to come out about.

 

[Mattadd]

Gene Roddenberry made the worst Star Trek.

Basically all of the Star Trek that came out while he was still alive was far inferior to everything in the Rick Berman/Brannon Braga eras.

 

[Vger23]

Gene Roddenberry made the worst Star Trek.

Basically all of the Star Trek that came out while he was still alive was far inferior to everything in the Rick Berman/Brannon Braga eras.

While I believe Gene was a deeply flawed man with inconsistent success as a writer, I cannot agree with this statement at all.

Gene created Star Trek itself...so your statement makes no sense. There is no "24th Century" Trek (which he also created, BTW) without Roddenberry.

Saying "all of the Star Trek that came out while he was still alive was far inferior to everything in the Rick Berman/Brannon Braga eras" is about the most ill-informed and questionable thing I've ever heard. If that's your opinion, that's one thing...but to say that Star Trek in the Berman era was "superior" is about as palatable as me putting my balls in a vice and twisting 5 times.

No sir. Uh uh. Nope.

 

[Mattadd]

It wasn't an objective statement. It is purely my own opinion. And yes I'm aware he created the 24th century Trek as well. That was all also unwatchable until the later seasons of TNG when he was out of the picture.

 

[Prax]

I've heard TNG season 3 often hailed as the best season.

 

[Mattadd]

Ewww. Well I have to disagree with that perspective.

 

[Mattadd]

The Best of Both Worlds Part I is a good episode but highly overrated. There are a few excellent episodes in season 3, namely Yesterday's Enterprise, Hollow Pursuits and Sarek. But on the whole it doesn't hold up at all in my opinion to the greatness of season 7.

 

[Ovation]

The Best of Both Worlds Part I is a good episode but highly overrated. There are a few excellent episodes in season 3, namely Yesterday's Enterprise, Hollow Pursuits and Sarek. But on the whole it doesn't hold up at all in my opinion to the greatness of season 7.

Yours is a minority opinion (nothing wrong with that--I actually like Trek V, for example), as season 7 is often considered "one season too much" by many, and even those who like it usually place it below seasons 3-6.

 

[Mattadd]

I'm aware of this. This looked like a thread where the point was to air minority opinions.

As for Star Trek V I'm with the majority on that one thinking it was terrible. But I am in the distinct minority of people that think Star Trek X was not only a good movie, but the best Star Trek movie.

 

[Ovation]

I'm aware of this. This looked like a thread where the point was to air minority opinions.

As for Star Trek V I'm with the majority on that one thinking it was terrible. But I am in the distinct minority of people that think Star Trek X was not only a good movie, but the best Star Trek movie.

A surprising pair of opinions (surprise is why I commented) but you are correct--this is the place to voice them. (I don't mind X nearly as much as most people either).