Time spans

[MAGolding]

Part One:

If someone wants to look up the time span between two events in the Star Trek fictional universe they can look up their dates in Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future (1993, 1996).

Unfortunately the official chronology of Star Trek is not accurate. The writers made too many assumptions and so came up with dates which contradict information in various productions. If someone wants to work out their own chronolgy of Star Trek they should be aware of the time spans between various eras of Star Trek.
So I will list the time spans between different eras as a reference for people thinking of making their own chronologies. About one example per post.

I should point out that I believe that all of Star Trek happens in an alternate universe which diverged from ours before the first productions were made, due to writers making historical statements which are not accurate in our history and the staff not correcting enough of those errors.

I also believe that each of the hundreds of episodes and movies happens in a separate alternate universe of its own, separate from the alternate universes of other episodes and movies. Except in the cases of productions which are clearly sequels to other producitons.

I also believe that different characters do not necessarily always state time differences in years of the same type, so that it is possible two different characters using different year lengths, might say that the same two events were a different number of years apart.

In the TOS episode "Requiem for Methusaleh" Kirk is suspicious that Mr. Flint might not be who he claims to be.

KIRK: Spock, at your earliest opportunity, take a full tricorder reading of our host. See if he's human. Kirk to Enterprise. Mister Scott?

Later:

SPOCK: We have still a greater mystery, Captain. I was able to run a tricorder scan on Mister Flint. He is human, but there are certain biophysical peculiarities. Some body function readings are disproportionate. For one thing, extreme age is indicated on the order of six thousand years.

So Spock says Flint is abut 6,000 years old. Possibly Flint was from 5,090 to 6,010 years old, possibly between 5,950 and 6,050 years old, possibly between 5,900 and 6,100 years old, possibly between 5,000 and 7,000 years old. But certainly not less than 5,000 or more than 7,000 years old. And spock didn't say whether he used Earth yeas, Vulcan years, Starfleet standard years, Federation standard years, Galactic standard years, or whatever, but he would used years that were unambigious accodring to Starfleet protocols.

Later Flint admits to being Brahms and Leonardo Da Vinci, and Solomon, Alexander, Lazarus, Methusaleh, Merlin, Abramson, and a hundred others.

SPOCK: You were born?
FLINT: In that region of earth later called Mesopotamia, in the year 3834 BC, as the millennia are reckoned. I was Akharin, a soldier, a bully and a fool. I fell in battle, pierced to the heart and did not die.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/76.htm

As far as I know this the only date specified to be BC or BCE in all productions up to the last episode of ENT. The Holocene Era calendar counts the years from the calendar era of 10,000 BC. Conversion from BC dates is Holocene era dates is by subtracting the BC number from from 10001. So Flint was born about 6167 HE (if he did the date calculations accurately) and would turn 6,000 in 12,167 HE, which is AD 2167. So depending on how precise Spock was with "on the order of six thousand years" (and what type of years Spock used), "Requiem for Methusaleh" might in the period of 2157-2177, or 2117 to 2217, or 2067 to 2267, or 1167 to 3167.

 

[PumpkinSpiceFoodCube]

Spock gave a vague number which is in line with Roddenberry not wanting to really pinpoint when TOS was taking place. There wasn't any kind of concrete idea about what century things were happening in until TWOK, and so none of those dates are possibly correct, especially with later information coming to life.

The TOS five year mission took place between 2265-2270 and had already been going on awhile when the events of the series occurred. If we put it towards the end, for convenience, say 2268 (12268 HE). Subtracting 6000 from that, if we're going to take that literally, and he was born in 6167 HE than he's probably 6100 to 6101 years old during that episode depending on the month and minor calendar adjustments..

 

[MAGolding]

Part Two.

In "Plato's Stepchildren" the Platonians are a group very long lived Human lookng aliens who visited Athens on Earth in the time of Plato. At least some of the older Platonians would have met Plato in person.

KIRK: Who are the inhabitants of this planet?
ALEXANDER: Oh, Platonians. I'm sure you've never heard of us. Our native star is Sahndara. Millennia ago, just before it went nova, we managed to escape. Our leader liked Plato's ideas Plato, Platonius. See? In fact, our present philosopher-king, Parmen, sometimes calls us Plato's children, although we sometimes think of ourselves more as Plato's stepchildren. Excuse me. Someone's waiting for you.

Captain's log, stardate 5784.3. Doctor McCoy is endeavouring to treat the leader of a strange group of people. When their planet novaed, millennia ago, they transported themselves to Earth in the time of Socrates and Plato. After the death of the Greek civilisation they idolised, they came to this planet and created for themselves a utopia patterned after it.

Greece was always civilized from the time of Plato to the present. The closest it came to civllization falling was during the invasion and settlement by Slavs who took over most of Greece, about the year 600, The Roman Empire reconquered the Slav-controlled parts of Greece a couple of centuries later.

It is possible that Star Trek happens in a set of alternate universes where the invasion of the Balkans by Gauls in the early part of the 3rd century was much more severe. Thus the Gaulish invasion of Greece in 279 BC might have been much more successful and Greek civilization might have fallen.

But Kirk probably said "Greek Civiiization" when he meant "Greek Culture". The Platonians might have left Earth sometime after Plato died in 348/347 BC (9653-9654 HE). Maybe they didn't like the culture in the Hellenstic Age from 323 BC to 30 BC.(9678 to 9971 HE). Maybe the Patonians considered the the Roman annexaton of Greece in 146 BC (9855 HE) to be the end of Greek Culture.

Maybe the Platonians didn't like the way the Greeks became more and more Romanized over the generations, considering themselves culturally Greek but politically Roman. If the Platonians had decent ethical standards, they migh thave been disgusted by the Greeks starting to have gladiatorial shows.. If the Platonians considered the Greek religion an important part of Greek culture, they might have been disgusted when Greeks converted to Christianity. Maybe sufficient Greeks became Christians that the Platonians decided to leave in AD 300, or 400, or 500, or 600.

At one point Parmen mentions how long they lived on Platonius:.

PARMEN: Fellow academicians. Twenty five hundred years ago, a band of hearty vagabonds arrived on this barren, rough-hewn planet. There was a desperate hardship of backbreaking toil. And then a divine providence graced our genius and our dedication with the power of powers. And through it, our every need instantly materialised. We thereupon determined to form a utopian brotherhood. This night is indeed a festive occasion, for tonight, we welcome into that brotherhood its first new member.

Assuming that Parmen would say "tewnty five hudnred years ago " if it was 2,400 to 2,600 years, they must have settled on Platonius at least tha tmany years after they left Greece and Earth.

Calculating from the death of Plato in 348/347 BC (9653-9654 HE) "Plato's Stepchildren" or PS would happen in AD 2053 to 2254, or later, depending on how long it took them to reach Platonius. Calculating from the Gaulish invasion in 279 BC (9722 HE) which could have destroyed Greek cultuure in an alternate universe, PS could happen in 2122 to 2322 or later.. Calculating from the Roman annexation in 146 BC (9855 HE) PS would be in AD 2255 to 2455.or even later. Calculating from Greece possilby becoming too Christian for the Platonians in AD 300 to 600, PS could happen in AD 2700 to 3000, or later.

If TOS is sometime in the period of AD 2100 to 2400, or 12100 to 12400 Holocene Era (HE), the arrrival of the Platonians on Platonius about 2400 to 2600 years earlier would be about 9500 to 10,000 HE or about 501 to 1 BC. And of course the Platonians could have left Earth long before they arrived on Platonius. Plato was born about 428 to 423 BC. (9573 to 9578 HE). Plato founded his Platonic Academy in around 383 BC (9618 HE). So if the Platonians left Earth then that would be the earliest they could have arrived on Platonius and the earliest possible date for "Plato's Stepchildren" would thus be about 12018 to 12218 He) or AD 2018 to 2218 AD, though the Platonians probably left at least a few years later..

So Parmen's statement would be more useful in counting back from a date for PS that was certain, to show when the Platonians reached Platonius, than to date PS and TOS.

Earlier:

PHILANA: We haven't had any pressing need for the medical arts. You see, while still on Sahndara, we instituted a mass eugenics programme. We're the result. Pared down to a population of thirty eight, we're perfect for our utopia. We're bred for contemplation and self-reliance. And longevity. How old would you say I am? Don't be afraid. I'm not vain.
SPOCK: Thirty five.
PHILANA: That old? I stopped aging at thirty. Well, anyway, you're off by two thousand years. I'm two thousand three hundred years old. We were married very young. I was only a hundred and seventeen, and he was a hundred and twenty eight. So you see, we scarcely have to move anymore, let alone work.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/67.htm

So Philana is 2,300 years old and Parmen is 2,311 years old. But Parmen said their group had no new members join for 2,500 years. Possibly Parmen used shorter years than Philana did, about 0.92 or less long as Philana's years.. They could choose between Sahndara years, Earth years, and Platonius years, and possibly other types of years.. Or maybe philana left a frew centuries off her age, despite not claiming to be vain.

Or maybe Pharmen and Philana were born centuries after Platonius was settled, and Parmen in his speach meant that McCoy was the first outsider to be admitted to the group, and wasn't thinking about new members were born the children of other Platonians.

 

[MAGolding]

In "Who Mourns for Adonais?" when Apollo grabs the Enteprise at Pollox IV:

KIRK: Are you responsible for stopping the ship?
APOLLO [on viewscreen]: Yes. I caused the wind to withdraw from your sails.
KIRK: Give it back, then we'll talk.
APOLLO [on viewscreen]: It has been five thousand years. Have you learned no patience in that time?
KIRK: I don't know who or what you are, but I must warn you we have the power to defend ourselves. If you value your safety, release this ship.
APOLLO [on viewscreen]: You have the same fire. How like your fathers you are. Agamemnon, Hector, Odysseus.

It is easy to imagine from this that Apollo and the other Greek gods left Earth 5,000 years earlier. So if TOS happens about AD 2100 to 2400, or 12100 to 12400 Holocene Era (HE), Apollo and the Greek gods would have left Earth about 7100 to 7400 HE, or 2901 to 2601 BC, plus or minus a few centuries.

The ancient Greeks lived in Greece in Europe, as well as on the western coast of what is now Turkey, and on Mediteranean islands..

Cretan Hieroglyphs were a writing system used on Crete from about 2100 to 1700 BC. Linear A was a script which was used on Crete and mainland Greece from about 1800 BC to 1450 BC. Cyptro-Minoan was a script used on Cyprus and places it traded with from about 1550-1050 BC. All three systems are undeciphered.

Linear B was a script used on Crete and mainland Greece from about 1450 to 1200 BC. It has been deciphered because it was used for an early form of Greek instead of the unknown languages of the other scripts.

The Greek alphabet was first used centuries later.

While early samples of the Greek alphabet date from at least 775 BC,[40] the oldest known substantial and comprehensible inscriptions, such as those on the Dipylon vase, the cup of Nestor, and cup of Acesander, date from c. 740/30 BC.[41] It is accepted that the introduction of the alphabet occurred some time prior to these inscriptions.[note 1] While earlier dates have been proposed,[42] the Greek alphabet is commonly held to have originated some time in the late 9th[43] or early 8th century BC,[44] conventionally around 800 BC.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet#History

So the earliest written examples of the names of Greek gods might date to about 700 BC in the Greek Alphabet or to 1450 to 1200 BC in Linear B. So there is no way of knowning when the Greek gods were first worshipped.

Apollo also says that Kirk is like Agamemnon, Hector, and Odysseus So Apollo would have left Earth sometime after when they actualy lived or after when people started believing in them.

They were heros of the legendary Trojan War.

Since this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as either the last event of the mythical age or the first event of the historical age, several dates are given for the fall of Troy. They usually derive from genealogies of kings. Ephorus gives 1135 BC,[207] Sosibius 1172 BC,[208] Eratosthenes 1184 BC/1183 BC,[209] Timaeus 1193 BC,[210] the Parian marble 1209 BC/1208 BC,[211] Dicaearchus 1212 BC,[212] Herodotus around 1250 BC,[213] Eretes 1291 BC,[214] while Douris gives 1334 BC.[215] As for the exact day Ephorus gives 23/24 Thargelion (6 or 7 May), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (26 May)[216] while others give the 23rd of Sciroforion (7 July) or the 23rd of Ponamos (7 October).

The glorious and rich city Homer describes was believed to be Troy VI by many twentieth century AD authors, and destroyed about 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake. Its successor, Troy VIIa, was destroyed around 1180 BC; it was long considered a poorer city, and dismissed as a candidate for Homeric Troy, but since the excavation campaign of 1988, it has come to be regarded as the most likely candidate.[217][218][219]

And of course their names were probably not written down until oral stories about the Trojan War were written.

So Apollo and the Greek gods should have left Earth after the Trojan War or maybe even after the legends about the Trojan War pe became popular, if Agamemnon, Hector, and Odysseus were only imaginary heroes. And that puts the date of TOS about AD 4000. So obviously Apollo should mean tha tthe Greek gods came to Earth 5,000 years earlier, stayed on Earth for millennia, and left Earth only two or three thousand years before TOS.

KIRK: You mentioned Agamemnon, Hector, Odysseus. How do you know about them?
APOLLO: Search your most distant memories, those of the thousands of years past, and I am there. Your fathers knew me, and your father's fathers. I am Apollo.

Apollo mentions other Greek gods:

POLLO: Earth, mother of the most beautiful of women in the universe. That at least has not changed. I am pleased. Yes, my children. Zeus, Athena, Aphrodite, Artemis. A gallant band of travellers. We knew your Earth well, five thousand of your years ago.

APOLLO: Agamemnon was one such as you, and Hercules. Pride and arrogance. They defied me until they felt my wrath.

Kirk speculates:

KIRK: Apollo's no god. But he could have been taken for one, though, once. Say five thousand years ago, a highly sophisticated group of space travellers landed on Earth around the Mediterranean.
MCCOY: Yes. To the simple shepherds and tribesmen of early Greece, creatures like that would have been gods.
KIRK: Especially if they had the power to alter their form at will and command great energy. In fact, they couldn't have been taken for anything else.

KIRK: Well, let's assume that five thousand years ago creatures like our friend Apollo did indeed visit Earth and form the basis of the Greek classic myths.

Apollo tells what happened to the others:

CAROLYN: All right, a god every day. What happened to the others? Artemis, Hera?
APOLLO: They returned to the cosmos on the wings of the wind.
CAROLYN: You mean they died?
APOLLO: No, not as you understand it. We're immortal, we gods. But the Earth changed. Your fathers changed. They turned away until we were only memories. A god cannot survive as a memory. We need love, admiration, worship, as you need food.
CAROLYN: You really think you're a god?
APOLLO: In a real sense, we were gods. We had the power of life and death. We could have struck out from Olympus and destroyed. We have no wish to destroy, so we came home again. It was an empty place without worshippers, but we had no strength to leave, so we waited, all of us, through the long years.
CAROLYN: But you said the others didn't die.
APOLLO: Even for a god, there's a point of no return. Hera was first. She stood in front of the temple and spread herself upon the wind, thinner and thinner, until only the wind remained. But I knew you would come. You striving, bickering, foolishly brave humans. I knew you would come to the stars one day. Of all the gods, I knew and I waited, waited for you to come and sit by my side.

And of course that makes no sense. If people stopped worshipping the Greek gods all they had to do was walk amoung mortals, and display their powers. As Kirk said; They couldn't have been mistaken for anothing else but gods if htey displayed their powers to human audiences.

APOLLO: Zeus, Hermes, Hera, Aphrodite. You were right. Athena, you were right. The time has passed. There is no room for gods. Forgive me, my old friends. Take me. Take me.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/33.htm

A big question is when did the Greek gods leave Earth. I like to imagine that the Greek gods and the Platonians left Earth on the same ship but they quarreled and the Greek gods left the Platonians on a planet they passed.

If TOS is sometime in the period of AD 2100 to 2400, or 12100 to 12400 Holocene Era (HE), the arrrival of the Platonians on Platonius about 2400 to 2600 years earlier would be about 9500 to 10,000 HE or about 501 to 1 BC. And of course the Platonians could have left Earth long before they arrived on Platonius. Plato was born about 428 to 423 BC. (9573 to 9578 HE). Plato founded his Platonic Academy in around 383 BC (9618 HE). So if the Platonians left Earth then that would be the earliest they could have arrived on Platonius and the earliest possible date for "Plato's Stepchildren" would thus be about 12018 to 12218 He) or AD 2018 to 2218 AD, thought he Platonians probably left at least a few years later..

Apollo and the Greek gods might have left Earth long before that. Even though they came to earth about the same time time that the civilizations in Mesopotamia and Egypt developed, Apollo gives no indication that they initiated those civilizattions. Instead Apollo talks about being worshipped by shepherds, even though agriculture began in Greece about 7000 to 6500 BC, long before Apollo's time. Thus the Greek gods might have left when civilization began to develop in Greece.

Or they might have left when Christianity replaced worship of the Greek gods. There were Christians in Greece as early as the first century. They grew in number over time. By about AD 312 Constantine I greatly favored Christians. From then on all emperors were raised as Christians. In 380 Emperor Theodosius I and hsi co-emepors issued the Edict of Thessalonica making Catholic Orothodoxy the sate religion of the Empire. In 391 Theodosius closed all non Chrisitan and non Jewish temples, forbidding pagan worship.

So the Greek gods would have certainly suffered from a locak of worshippers by about AD 400. Anyway apollo doesn't mention how much time passed since they left Earth.

 

[1001001]

No.

Just no.

We are not doing this again.

Start a blog somewhere, but stop with these massive screeds. I’ve told you before, and frankly I’m tired of dealing with this nonsense.