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Time dilation?

Lyon_Wonder

Captain
Captain
If you’ve watched nuBSG’s last season you’ve probably heard of the theory of time dilation, where a ship can travel through space at the near the speed of light and time inside the ship is relative to the rest of the universe. In NuBSG the Final Five traveled from Cylon “Earth” to the 12 colonies in 2,000 years since their ship didn’t have FTL, though time inside the ship was out-of proportion to time in surrounding space. I assume with time dilation a ship’s crew doesn’t need cryo-stasis or other technical doodads. Has time dilation been mentioned or used in Trek? I don't seem to remember any use of it, not that it was needed since most ships in the Trek universe are warp capable. After losing the Eugenics War, Khan and his genetically-enhanced minions flee Earth on the Botany Bay, which I guess wasn’t capable of near-light speed or even impulse since McGivers mentioned in “Space Seed” that Earth’s early interplanetary vessels were sleeper ships until the ion drive was invented for higher sublight speeds sometime in the early 21st century. So Khan and his crew couldn’t use time dilation since the Botany Boy was simply too slow.
 
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Time dilation is possible with impulse, but generally not practical. To be quite honest, the only time I've seen time dilation and relativistic travel used in sci-fi was in "Ender's Game". It made an already fairly-depressing-to-think-about situation even more depressing once you realized the implications.

It is, for what should be obvious reasons, generally one-way over interstellar distances, too. Not helpful for storytelling.

Hence, most universes use FTL travel of some sort.
 
To be quite honest, the only time I've seen time dilation and relativistic travel used in sci-fi was in "Ender's Game". It made an already fairly-depressing-to-think-about situation even more depressing once you realized the implications.

It is, for what should be obvious reasons, generally one-way over interstellar distances, too. Not helpful for storytelling.

Hence, most universes use FTL travel of some sort.
You need to read Heinlein's Time For The Stars.
It not only has time dilation as a major plot point, but also uses the Twins Paradox.
In brief, we figure out that telepathy travels FTL, and some identical twins are telepathic with each other, so we recruit a bunch of pairs of twins for our explorer ships, so that when one finds a habitable world it can send word of that back home immediately.
So a generation of explorers sets out for adventure in the full knowledge that when they come home in a few years, their twin brother will have adult grandchildren.

Time dilation only gets significant at speeds over half the speed of light, which is one reason why Full Impulse is defined as one quarter of the speed of light.
 
Time dilation was used in the first Destiny novel by NX-02 Columbia since its warp engines were dead and they didn't have enough supplies to last for a trip home. But other than that instance I can't think of it being used elsewhere in star trek..
 
You need to read Heinlein's Time For The Stars.
It not only has time dilation as a major plot point, but also uses the Twins Paradox.
In brief, we figure out that telepathy travels FTL, and some identical twins are telepathic with each other, so we recruit a bunch of pairs of twins for our explorer ships, so that when one finds a habitable world it can send word of that back home immediately.
So a generation of explorers sets out for adventure in the full knowledge that when they come home in a few years, their twin brother will have adult grandchildren.

Time dilation only gets significant at speeds over half the speed of light, which is one reason why Full Impulse is defined as one quarter of the speed of light.

Yeah, I'm deficient when it comes to reading "Classic" sci-fi. I prefer modern stuff for a lot of reasons (among them that Heinlein (among others), the few times I encountered him when I was a younger reader, seemed to inject a lot of axes-to-grind and political/philosophical stuff in his works, which struck preteen me as a little too like Victor Hugo (I'd started reading Heinlein after reading Les Miserables. Unabridged, in English. Ye gods, Hugo can digress.)).

Re Time dilation, maybe someone knows this better than me - is there a constant formula to the effect? IE, at half of c the ratio is x, as you get closer to c the rate changes thusly?
 
Wikipedia to the rescue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Overview_of_time_dilation_formulae

Let's try to translate (assuming I understand what I am reading):

I am holding still, you are moving. What from my perspective takes a second will appear to you to take an amount of time based on this formula:
Take the amount of time I perceive as passing, and divide it by the square-root of (one minus (your speed squared divided by the speed of light squared)).
Unless you are moving at least 1/10 the speed of light, the dilation will be too small to notice.
They've got a cool graph that shows how it really takes off when you get above 0.8 times the speed of light. It's one of those weird curves (kinda like the warp curve) that never actually reaches the end: you are always traveling some tiny fraction less than the speed of light.

As you can see from the formula, if you were to reach the speed of light, you would need to divide by zero to get how much time you would perceive as passing, and since you can't ever divide by zero, .... that can't happen.
 
I like the idea in the TNG Tech Manual that impulse engines use a low-level subspace field to compensate for time dilation effects up to 0.25c (full impulse). Impulse engines can go much faster than that--presumably up to 0.99c--but extended sublight flight beyond 0.25c isn't recommended because the aforementioned time dilation effects would kick in.
 
I like to consider that, even though the principle of time dilation passes every scientific test, the term itself is a bit overdramatic, meaning that it could well be that it's not time itself that is affected but processes.

So if you measure how much the half-life of a short-lived particle is extended by hurling it at more than half the speed of light in a particle accelerator, its decay is slowed down rather than actual time from that particle's perspective. The results are the same. The description is just less colorful and less open to allowing for time-travel sci-fi.
 
I thought that Jose Tyler's reference to "The time barrier has been broken" was a reference that warp speed was relatively new and that previous ships traveled close to the speed of light, such as SS Columbia, in "The Cage".
 
^^ I think that may have been the intent. But later historical worldbuilding shot that idea down. I think the "time barrier" now refers to something else such as a warpdrive that's significantly slower than those of the Enterprise type ships in that era.

I've read a lot about time dilation and am trying to write a story involving a starship that travels at high relativistic speeds. But high relativistic I mean speeds better than fifty or sixty percent of light. Indeed it isn't until you get past about ninety percent of light that things get really interesting.

If your ship has the tech and you can go fast enough (this is science fiction, right) then a star light years away could only be a few weeks or a couple months transit for the crew. If your ship can accelerate quickly and cruise fast enough then you could conceivably do without any form of stasis.

And this is idea is no crazier than FTL starflight. Indeed, at least it has real mathematics to support it. If you couple it with the average human lifespan being 120-150 years then you've got a plausible scenario for getting into deep space.

That said I still used a form of human hibernation in tandem with high relativistic starflight. Because while hibernating you're conserving power and resources while in-flight.
 
^Yeah, we need to accept the later world building and retcon the stuff that was presented before.
TOS shot the slower-than-light "time barrier" idea down. "Balance Of Terror's" reference to primitive ships a hundred years prior supports the reference in The Cage, but in 2nd season the reference to Zefram Cochrane developing the space warp over 150 years earlier just destroys the idea of slower-than-light ships existing only a couple of decades before Pike.
 
^Yeah, we need to accept the later world building and retcon the stuff that was presented before.
TOS shot the slower-than-light "time barrier" idea down. "Balance Of Terror's" reference to primitive ships a hundred years prior supports the reference in The Cage, but in 2nd season the reference to Zefram Cochrane developing the space warp over 150 years earlier just destroys the idea of slower-than-light ships existing only a couple of decades before Pike.

There's a loophole there though, at least there was until ST: First Contact anyway? Cochrane "discovered the space warp", thats not necessarily the same as "inventing warp drive"? I had always assumed that the "static" space warp allowed a sub-light impulse drive to cheat the light barrier, but only by a little, and then warp drive per se actually manipulated the fabric of space/time dynamically to actually propel a ship much faster than 'C'? This takes care of the referance from "The Cage" and accounts for the TAS Bonaventure as well?
 
Well for me I couldn't care less what FC says or does because I don't consider it part of the same continuity anyway. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I don't care about that either. At the time of TOS and for a long time FTL was established prior to the reference suggested in The Cage.
 
After losing the Eugenics War, Khan and his genetically-enhanced minions flee Earth on the Botany Bay, which I guess wasn’t capable of near-light speed or even impulse since McGivers mentioned in “Space Seed” that Earth’s early interplanetary vessels were sleeper ships until the ion drive was invented for higher sublight speeds sometime in the early 21st century. So Khan and his crew couldn’t use time dilation since the Botany Boy was simply too slow.

To the contrary, I'd argue that Khan did benefit from the time dilation of high relativistic speed flight.

After all, in the episode, it is claimed that Khan slept for about two centuries. However, Khan was underway from 1996 (given in the episode) to the mid-to-late 2260s (established elsewhere in Star Trek), which amounts to 270 years, or about three centuries. How do three centuries become two? Why, because Khan is flying at an appreciable percentage of lightspeed!

In order for about 270 years of travel to become less than 250 years of cryosleep, Khan would have to be moving at about 0.45 times lightspeed. And that's in every way acceptable and desirable - because at such a speed (plus a bit of acceleration time), he would get to a distance of hundred-plus lightyears, which is great for ending up in an area of space that would be virtually unvisited for the early part of Khan's flight; then visited by humans for a while (the ENT adventures happened at such a distance); and then again abandoned by Earth traffic, like "Space Seed" says.

Also, many of the stars of the constellation Cetus are at such a distance from Earth, so Kirk could maroon Khan at the nearest habitable yet desolate planet and this would end up being Ceti Alpha V. (Or something like Eta Ceti A V, but our heroes would drop the Eta as unnecessary in the context.)

A ship capable of 0.45 times lightspeed need not be fast enough for noncryogenic interplanetary travel, mind you. It would all be a matter of acceleration. If the ship could sustain one gee, it would take about half a year to work up to said relativistic speed - and a week to go to Jupiter. But if the ship could only sustain 0.1 gee, that'd be three weeks to Jupiter, and still Khan could reach his interstellar cruising speed in a matter of just a few years. At some point, cryogenic sleep might become necessary for insystem trips, while nevertheless allowing for intersystem travel.

That is, assuming that the ship wouldn't be relying on conventional rocketry which requires propellant mass. And since the Botany Bay doesn't look like she'd have giant fuel tanks anywhere, I guess this assumption holds true. (Yes, we can see that more than half the external containers have been jettisoned, or perhaps never bolted on in the first place - but even a full set of sixteen wouldn't give enough propellant for conventional insystem let alone interstellar rocketry. So the containers are more probably cargo, or perhaps even the location of the cryochambers.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
That is, assuming that the ship wouldn't be relying on conventional rocketry which requires propellant mass. And since the Botany Bay doesn't look like she'd have giant fuel tanks anywhere, I guess this assumption holds true. (Yes, we can see that more than half the external containers have been jettisoned, or perhaps never bolted on in the first place - but even a full set of sixteen wouldn't give enough propellant for conventional insystem let alone interstellar rocketry. So the containers are more probably cargo, or perhaps even the location of the cryochambers.)

Timo Saloniemi

On a side note, I like aridas' idea that there may have been an acceleration stage attached to the botony Bay that was jettisoned after reaching critical velocity? I think this could be used to explain what we saw in VOY: "Future's end" on Rain Robinson's desk, that is, an "acceleration" stage not a "lauch" stage as had been heretofor assumed???
 
After losing the Eugenics War, Khan and his genetically-enhanced minions flee Earth on the Botany Bay, which I guess wasn’t capable of near-light speed or even impulse since McGivers mentioned in “Space Seed” that Earth’s early interplanetary vessels were sleeper ships until the ion drive was invented for higher sublight speeds sometime in the early 21st century. So Khan and his crew couldn’t use time dilation since the Botany Boy was simply too slow.

To the contrary, I'd argue that Khan did benefit from the time dilation of high relativistic speed flight.

After all, in the episode, it is claimed that Khan slept for about two centuries. However, Khan was underway from 1996 (given in the episode) to the mid-to-late 2260s (established elsewhere in Star Trek), which amounts to 270 years, or about three centuries. How do three centuries become two? Why, because Khan is flying at an appreciable percentage of lightspeed!

In order for about 270 years of travel to become less than 250 years of cryosleep, Khan would have to be moving at about 0.45 times lightspeed. And that's in every way acceptable and desirable - because at such a speed (plus a bit of acceleration time), he would get to a distance of hundred-plus lightyears, which is great for ending up in an area of space that would be virtually unvisited for the early part of Khan's flight; then visited by humans for a while (the ENT adventures happened at such a distance); and then again abandoned by Earth traffic, like "Space Seed" says.

Also, many of the stars of the constellation Cetus are at such a distance from Earth, so Kirk could maroon Khan at the nearest habitable yet desolate planet and this would end up being Ceti Alpha V. (Or something like Eta Ceti A V, but our heroes would drop the Eta as unnecessary in the context.)

A ship capable of 0.45 times lightspeed need not be fast enough for noncryogenic interplanetary travel, mind you. It would all be a matter of acceleration. If the ship could sustain one gee, it would take about half a year to work up to said relativistic speed - and a week to go to Jupiter. But if the ship could only sustain 0.1 gee, that'd be three weeks to Jupiter, and still Khan could reach his interstellar cruising speed in a matter of just a few years. At some point, cryogenic sleep might become necessary for insystem trips, while nevertheless allowing for intersystem travel.

That is, assuming that the ship wouldn't be relying on conventional rocketry which requires propellant mass. And since the Botany Bay doesn't look like she'd have giant fuel tanks anywhere, I guess this assumption holds true. (Yes, we can see that more than half the external containers have been jettisoned, or perhaps never bolted on in the first place - but even a full set of sixteen wouldn't give enough propellant for conventional insystem let alone interstellar rocketry. So the containers are more probably cargo, or perhaps even the location of the cryochambers.)

Timo Saloniemi
I feel like an idiot. All these years and the explanation for the discrepancy between Khan's claim of two hundred years and the actual more like three hundred years has been staring me in the face.
 
Not helpful for storytelling.

Depends on the story you're telling. I've read lots of sci-fi that doesn't have ftl/makes use of time dilation.
Larry Niven's A World Out Of Time and Stephen Baxter's Ring are two great time-dilation novels.

The Queen song 39 is probably the best song about the human effect of relativistic time dilation. :)

Doesn't the Enterprise D have a Bussard collector?
 
To the contrary, I'd argue that Khan did benefit from the time dilation of high relativistic speed flight....
I feel like an idiot. All these years and the explanation for the discrepancy between Khan's claim of two hundred years and the actual more like three hundred years has been staring me in the face.
I'm with Warped9, that's a nifty bit of thinking! And it's not contradicted by what Spock says about the vessels:

SPOCK: Captain, the DY-100 class vessel was designed for interplanetary travel only. With simple nuclear-powered engines, star travel was considered impractical at that time. It was ten thousand to one against their making it to another star system.
So much for Space Seed! How do the "two centuries" references in other TOS episodes look now?
 
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