Spoilers Thunderbolts* grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
I'm just hoping my mom won't be to lost, she only watches the movies that we go to see in theaters, and hasn't watch any of the shows. She has enjoyed them, but she only goes because I don't like to go by myself.
A new video from EW with David Harbour, Florence Pugh, and Lewis Pullman checking out some of their character's merchandise has given us our first look at The Sentry costume.
https://ew.com/thunderbolts-cast-reveal-sentry-costume-first-look-exclusive-video-11723847
A new video from EW with David Harbour, Florence Pugh, and Lewis Pullman checking out some of their character's merchandise has given us our first look at The Sentry costume.
https://ew.com/thunderbolts-cast-reveal-sentry-costume-first-look-exclusive-video-11723847
Valentina mentions his short Congressional career but I think that's because she assumes he'll be killed shortly. There's no part where he like leaves Congress or anything. Though that can be assumed by a post-credits scene.
What a damn fun film!
I went in with expectations high and they were well met. I loved watching these wonderful but broken screwballs going from fighting each other to slowly, begrudgingly working together in the face of a terrible but familiar adversary. It's almost as if they were destined to become...New Avengers.* But best of all, I loved the perfect balance of ridiculous humor and earnest, introspective character studies.
Although this film was assembled with an ensemble cast, inarguably this was Yelena's story. Much of the narrative and the major themes were built around her journey through her trauma, depression, and sinking sense of worthlessness. I loved how we got glimpses of Yelena's experiences with the Red Room and why they were so awful, clearly demonstrating how much those experiences haunted her and deeply affected her every day life, no matter how much she tried to push it all down. I especially loved her frank and cathartic confession to Bob that how she handled those issues wasn't the healthiest method, and how she used her experiences as means to reach out to him and help him heal alongside her own recovery.
As much as I adore Yelena and as much as I think the creatives made the right choice in centering the film around her, I do wish we had seen more of the other characters' own trials and tribulations. I particularly wish we gotten one of Bob's memory visits for each member and I suspect we were suppose to get one each for at least Alexei and Eva based on the early (but perhaps unsubstantiated) reports that Rachel Weisz and Laurence Fishbourne were set to return. But it's unfair to judge the film for the things it didn't do. That said, I loved the gag about Bucky having a "wonderful life" and that his trip through the Void is going just fine.
Speaking of whom, I enjoyed the brief glimpses of Bucky's career as a congressman. I loved seeing how he went from trying to deal with Valentina with his tried and tested methods before being swayed by Congressman Bunk Moreland, I mean, Gary into trying it Congress' way (even if kidnapping a bunch of mercenaries isn't exactly due process...) before reverting back to his comfort zone when that was clearly the best way of dealing with Valentina's tactics. I'm fine the film didn't try to explore his demons because past films and Falcon and the Winter Soldier have already done an excellent job on this count and this was Yelena's time to shine. I still wish we had gotten more John's and especially Eva's demons but I accept that there wasn't enough room for that here (at least Alexei got some ground covered via Yelena). Perhaps a future film focused on them will explore those demons but that seems unlikely given the upcoming mega cosmic events and the slim likelihood that they are all still standing in the aftermath.
I loved Valentina, her silver tongue, her eely ability of slipping out of her own self-created dangers, and how she was the team's anti-Fury. Yes, she was responsible for getting them together...but only in attempt to kill them. And she only decided to capitalize on their success in neutralizing the Void threat as means of completely saving her own ass. But, like Yelena said, they own her now.
Lastly, I loved everything related to Bob, the Sentry, and the Void. While the exploration of mental health was only surface deep, I nonetheless appreciated how the film approached Bob's troubles and how they manifested through both the Sentry and the Void. I loved the Kaufman-esque reality of the Voidspace (if that's what it's called...) and if anything, I wish the film had leaned even more into that surreality but I also realize that's not really MCU's usual playing field beyond a couple of scenes (see also WandaVision, Multiverse of Madness, and Love and Thunder). I also loved the perhaps-not-so-subtle commentary on how most MCU films devolve into fistfights as means of ultimately dealing with villains and how that was exact opposite of what was needed here to overcome the Void.
Mid- and post-credits scenes:
Wheaties! Alexei loves his Wheaties! No matter how much that creeps out strangers! Wheaties!
I think this may have been the longest post-credits scene to date because it was a full-blown proper scene with lots of exposition, character quipping, and just enough plot movement to reveal...the Fantastic Four have arrived! I had heard hints and rumors that this would be the case but I had it confirmed for me moments before the scene when I noticed the film's theme music was listed in the credits (as well as a special thanks to director Jon Watts). Still, it was a cool reveal and my audience went bananas in response.
*Even though many of us predicted this was ultimately the reason for the *, it was still a fun reveal and I loved my audience's reaction. I think Thunderbolts* is going to resonate really well with audiences based on my very small sample size (of about 70 or so people). A nice combination of the Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy.
I went in with expectations high and they were well met. I loved watching these wonderful but broken screwballs going from fighting each other to slowly, begrudgingly working together in the face of a terrible but familiar adversary. It's almost as if they were destined to become...New Avengers.* But best of all, I loved the perfect balance of ridiculous humor and earnest, introspective character studies.
Although this film was assembled with an ensemble cast, inarguably this was Yelena's story. Much of the narrative and the major themes were built around her journey through her trauma, depression, and sinking sense of worthlessness. I loved how we got glimpses of Yelena's experiences with the Red Room and why they were so awful, clearly demonstrating how much those experiences haunted her and deeply affected her every day life, no matter how much she tried to push it all down. I especially loved her frank and cathartic confession to Bob that how she handled those issues wasn't the healthiest method, and how she used her experiences as means to reach out to him and help him heal alongside her own recovery.
As much as I adore Yelena and as much as I think the creatives made the right choice in centering the film around her, I do wish we had seen more of the other characters' own trials and tribulations. I particularly wish we gotten one of Bob's memory visits for each member and I suspect we were suppose to get one each for at least Alexei and Eva based on the early (but perhaps unsubstantiated) reports that Rachel Weisz and Laurence Fishbourne were set to return. But it's unfair to judge the film for the things it didn't do. That said, I loved the gag about Bucky having a "wonderful life" and that his trip through the Void is going just fine.
Speaking of whom, I enjoyed the brief glimpses of Bucky's career as a congressman. I loved seeing how he went from trying to deal with Valentina with his tried and tested methods before being swayed by Congressman Bunk Moreland, I mean, Gary into trying it Congress' way (even if kidnapping a bunch of mercenaries isn't exactly due process...) before reverting back to his comfort zone when that was clearly the best way of dealing with Valentina's tactics. I'm fine the film didn't try to explore his demons because past films and Falcon and the Winter Soldier have already done an excellent job on this count and this was Yelena's time to shine. I still wish we had gotten more John's and especially Eva's demons but I accept that there wasn't enough room for that here (at least Alexei got some ground covered via Yelena). Perhaps a future film focused on them will explore those demons but that seems unlikely given the upcoming mega cosmic events and the slim likelihood that they are all still standing in the aftermath.
I loved Valentina, her silver tongue, her eely ability of slipping out of her own self-created dangers, and how she was the team's anti-Fury. Yes, she was responsible for getting them together...but only in attempt to kill them. And she only decided to capitalize on their success in neutralizing the Void threat as means of completely saving her own ass. But, like Yelena said, they own her now.
Lastly, I loved everything related to Bob, the Sentry, and the Void. While the exploration of mental health was only surface deep, I nonetheless appreciated how the film approached Bob's troubles and how they manifested through both the Sentry and the Void. I loved the Kaufman-esque reality of the Voidspace (if that's what it's called...) and if anything, I wish the film had leaned even more into that surreality but I also realize that's not really MCU's usual playing field beyond a couple of scenes (see also WandaVision, Multiverse of Madness, and Love and Thunder). I also loved the perhaps-not-so-subtle commentary on how most MCU films devolve into fistfights as means of ultimately dealing with villains and how that was exact opposite of what was needed here to overcome the Void.
Mid- and post-credits scenes:
Wheaties! Alexei loves his Wheaties! No matter how much that creeps out strangers! Wheaties!
I think this may have been the longest post-credits scene to date because it was a full-blown proper scene with lots of exposition, character quipping, and just enough plot movement to reveal...the Fantastic Four have arrived! I had heard hints and rumors that this would be the case but I had it confirmed for me moments before the scene when I noticed the film's theme music was listed in the credits (as well as a special thanks to director Jon Watts). Still, it was a cool reveal and my audience went bananas in response.
*Even though many of us predicted this was ultimately the reason for the *, it was still a fun reveal and I loved my audience's reaction. I think Thunderbolts* is going to resonate really well with audiences based on my very small sample size (of about 70 or so people). A nice combination of the Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy.
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Really enjoyed the third act. Drag a bit in the first two. Nice character development though.
I have seen all of the MCU films, and this is one of my favorites for it focuses on the characters, especially Yelena. I have liked this character since Black Widow. Yes, the exploration of mental illness and its effects was superficial; however, I think they covered it well and showed that it was dealt with best by a team of people who care about and support a person who has the illness.
For me it was not just about Bob's mental problems but the entire team that started off at their lowest point in their own lives. Walker having a hard time dealing with his fuck up being Captain America, Yelena feeling alone and abandoned, Alexei not dealing well with having no purpose anymore and Ava just had a horrible childhood on the same level as Yelena. Bucky is about the only person who's better now but he's been there and worse but came out through the other end to give some advice.
Circumstances bring them together and they all bond through the fact that they're all screwed up in some way and i love how this forms the basis of the team and how they help each other deal with their problems together.
This is what i felt was lacking post Endgame - it was all just geared towards building the next storyline, filling the movies up with Special Effects ( sometimes very badly) and tossing in a few one liners and it just didn't work for the most part because those movies were missing heart, something that the MCU really did well in the past and what made them so successful as opposed to the DCU movies.
Marvel is not out of the woods but maybe Thunderbolts can remind them what used to be good in the MCU, i at least hope so. Superhero fatigue can only set in when the movies are bad, the audience will always turn up to see good movies.
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Just got back...
...Yeesh, this is 2014 all over again with Guardians of the Galaxy. Everyone so sure this would be some useless filler movie of an unwanted team having some meaningless adventure, and instead it's one of the best movies in the Phase and serves to build up things in a very smart way and introduce us to vital new characters.
...Yeesh, this is 2014 all over again with Guardians of the Galaxy. Everyone so sure this would be some useless filler movie of an unwanted team having some meaningless adventure, and instead it's one of the best movies in the Phase and serves to build up things in a very smart way and introduce us to vital new characters.
Agreed 100%. While I would've wanted more than surface exploration on the mental health aspect, I love your point about survivors coming together to help others. A completely different show but Leo McGarry's speech about a guy in a hole to Josh Lyman always comes to mind in situations like this one.
Speaking as one of those people who was foolishly blasé about Guardians of the Galaxy and freely admit that he was completely wrong, I was fully ready for Thunderbolts* to prove the naysayers wrong.
And I'm glad I was right this time!
Yes, that fits Bucky perfectly. "I have been there and i know the way out"
It is a big part why i love the MCU, their characters and story arcs ( especially Bucky).
Great to see they haven't forgotten how to make a good movie, though I fear it won't do as well as it would have a few years ago. Hopefully the glowing reviews and positive word of mouth will persuade people to give it a chance.
Still think it was crazy to give away the end of F4 before it was even released though. You could have kept the scene exactly the same and just cut off the last few seconds. I'm sure most people would still guess that's who it was but we wouldn't know for sure.
Still think it was crazy to give away the end of F4 before it was even released though. You could have kept the scene exactly the same and just cut off the last few seconds. I'm sure most people would still guess that's who it was but we wouldn't know for sure.
We still don't know EXACTLY what's going on in the FF movie that leads to that ending.
‘Thunderbolts*’ Director on That Credits Scene, Shame Rooms They Didn’t Use and Making a Marvel Movie About Depression: ‘I Don’t Want This to Be the Weird One’
"Thunderbolts*" director Jake Schreier talks about the post-credits scene, what Bucky and the Red Guardian's shame rooms would've been, and making a summer blockbuster about depression.
variety.com
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What's your source for that quote? You linked a previous post from this thread.
That was an excellent interview.
I'm delighted (but unsurprised) to read that Schreier used the same techniques as Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, Being John Malkovich, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind to create the Voidspace sequences.
I haven't read any comics with Sentry/the Void but I'm happy to read that Paul Jenkins, their creator, had always intended them as a depression parable. I love that the creatives for this film even talked to him while developing the film.
This part in particular stands out for me:
Turns out I was wrong in my supposition that they got as far as filming those scenes so it appears that the early reports of Rachel Weisz and Laurence Fishbourne were unsubstantiated and just wishful thinking.
As much as I would've loved to have seen those scenes and gaining more insight in the rest of themes demons, I agree the creatives made the right choice by narrowing the focus to Yelena going through her demons in order to reach Bob directly.
Schreier also addressed a small issue I had with Walker's memory visit. I had thought Walker's worst memory would've been murdering the Flag Smasher who accidentally killed Lamarr. Instead, Schreier rightfully points out that seeing how a horrible moment like that affects Walker later on and in a domestic setting resonates far greater.
I'm delighted (but unsurprised) to read that Schreier used the same techniques as Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, Being John Malkovich, and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind to create the Voidspace sequences.
I haven't read any comics with Sentry/the Void but I'm happy to read that Paul Jenkins, their creator, had always intended them as a depression parable. I love that the creatives for this film even talked to him while developing the film.
This part in particular stands out for me:
A lot of the discourse about how where things are in the world today revolves around a generation of young men who are desperately lost and alone and depressed. How much of that was on your mind as you were exploring those themes in this movie?
Once it became Lewis’s role, and we started working together and talking about it, and you would just see these moments that felt resonant in that way. It wasn’t really an intent to speak to that. But I think, like, as we made it, it felt like, oh, there is some resonance there. We never wanted to kind of lecture anyone or pander to anything, but just make it feel honest. I mean, to me, that character was always based on a friend of mine who has gone through a lot of this stuff, and would have these very high highs, and would always bring in this very self-destructive quality underneath it. He really needed to learn how to exist within the middle of that and be okay with being himself.
In regards to the shame rooms, Schreier talked about the process of developing them and how they got for the rooms we didn't see:We see Bob, Elena, Walker and Val’s shame rooms. Did you explore at all what Bucky or Ava or Alexei’s shame rooms would look like?
I was very sad not to not to get to see especially Alexei’s shame room. Yeah, we tried. There was a time when the finale became an escape through all of their shame rooms, and I think that would have been very fun. But something Joanna really spoke up for was needing to have a Big Bad moment before they got out of the Void. And if it’s going to lead to the heart of the Void, then it felt like it was more important to take a journey through Bob’s shame rooms — as much as I am very sad not to have gotten to get in every character’s past.
How far did you get into thinking about what that would look like?
We got pretty far. We have full animatic, storyboarded sequences of all kinds of different versions of the end of this movie.
Can you tell me a little bit about what those would’ve been?
We had Alexei in the gulag, I think, having been thrown in there. I believe Ghost’s was about her time in the orphanage, and being this girl that no one wanted to be around — to be able to be invisible and see the way that you’re perceived and no one wanting to associate with you felt very sad. We had a lot of different Bucky ones. We always wanted to do something a little less than the expected idea. There’s some very obvious things for Bucky, but I think at one point, Joanna had written something around some shameful moment in Boy Scout camp. But I don’t know that that would have really been the right path for it. That’s the nice thing with working with these actors — they’re such invested, caring guardians of their characters and their arcs that they’ll let you know something feels false or not right to them.
Turns out I was wrong in my supposition that they got as far as filming those scenes so it appears that the early reports of Rachel Weisz and Laurence Fishbourne were unsubstantiated and just wishful thinking.
As much as I would've loved to have seen those scenes and gaining more insight in the rest of themes demons, I agree the creatives made the right choice by narrowing the focus to Yelena going through her demons in order to reach Bob directly.
Schreier also addressed a small issue I had with Walker's memory visit. I had thought Walker's worst memory would've been murdering the Flag Smasher who accidentally killed Lamarr. Instead, Schreier rightfully points out that seeing how a horrible moment like that affects Walker later on and in a domestic setting resonates far greater.
The Fast and the Wistfully Serious?
I guess a lot of actors in that franchise are aging out?
Ghost - Ant-Man 2.
Red Guardian - Black Widow, What if?.
Black Widow II - Black Widow, Hawkeye.
Bucky - Captain America 1 - 4, What If?, Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Avengers 2 - 4, Ant-Man, Black Panther.
US Agent - Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Taskmaster - Black Widow.
Valentina (Elaine from Friends) - Black Panther Wakanda Forever, Black Widow, Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
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