Thoughts on the tactical officer in Justice being Joe Carey from Voyager?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by trekshark, Dec 23, 2020.

  1. Farscape One

    Farscape One Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Okay, post graduation from the Academy. That makes more sense.

    Still was promoted twice... once to Lt. jg, and again to become full Lt. (This timing is very close, though, as it just turns 2365 when season 2 begins. His promotion happened between seasons, so there is room to say only one promotion.)

    However, the Lt. Cmdr. ceiling is very likely except for one thing... Sisko put Eddington up for promotion before he went rogue, so it shows that such a thing is possible. In his case, being in charge of Starfleet security on such a large station likely would account for that.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There was ambiguous dialogue in "The Adversary" on what sort of ceilings Eddington might hit:

    Obviously a goldshirt should be able to climb the rank ladder just fine, and one of 'em even wears gold at flag rank. But admittedly there's a curious dearth of goldshirts with four pips specifically!

    Eddington might be speaking about the position of starship captain, rather than the four pips. But the context is all wrong: the whole discussion is about the four pips, and about rank making a difference even for people who already command a starship.

    Both sides have a point there: Sisko at that time lives in such a short and slender chain of command that his rank indeed makes no difference, and the four pips plus the center seat indeed are likely to be the killer combo that makes people enlist. It's just that the context in this conversation is all weird for the expressing of these specific sentiments - and the issue of no goldshirts with four pips does linger...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. USS Excelsior

    USS Excelsior Commodore Commodore

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    Scotty would have been the equivalent of being an Engineering Captain.
     
  4. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's pretty clear that Eddington is talking about holding the rank and position of Starship captain, and he doesn't feel it's somewhere he'll ever get in his Starfleet career.

    Obviously in hindsight there's some really nice subtext to the scene - he knows he can't switch to command because he's working for the Maquis and his time in Starfleet is short (and his position as DS9 Starfleet Security Chief is critical for them), but equally it's through the Maquis that he'd find a vehicle to fulfill all his romantic dreams of heroic leadership.

    I guess somewhere along the line his career took a turn he regretted, and led him to nurse some grievances against Starfleet for the Maquis to exploit. Maybe the novels have dug into that?

    And as for the OP question, why not? In my head canon it's Joe Carey because there's no reason for it not to be.
     
  5. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Commander Red Shirt

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    Supposing that the rank of Colonel as given in ST:6 exists, then Commodore Stocker, who had never commanded a starship, potentially could have been one also in the past; by that logic, Sisko had the Defiant or else he might have been called a Colonel, too. Kira was called a Colonel when she wore a Starfleet uniform. Although Sisko and Kira wore red, it is possible that operations officers who reach the 4-pip rank and do not serve on a ship would be called Colonels. Scotty apparently is in the operations division but serves on a ship and took command of the ship several times in TOS, so he could be a Captain.

    If Starfleet is a "combined service," as stated in TOS, then maybe this would allow for some of the odd ranks that theoretically "shouldn't" exist in a naval system to be used the way they have been onscreen.
     
  6. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    By whom? Garak and Odo were very careful to call her "commander" whilst she was in Starfleet uniform.
     
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  7. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Commander Red Shirt

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    I did not remember that detail. I'm aware that she was called "Colonel Kira" in the later episodes main title and she was wearing a Stafleet uniform by that point.
     
  8. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, Colonel (or possibly Lieutenant Colonel) is the Bajoran militia rank which is equivalent to a Commander in Starfleet, so when she's given a Starfleet commission, she's given that rank.

    However, "Colonel" West had the rank insignia of a Starfleet Admiral. I think some have speculated he's the head of the MACOs or Starfleet Marines. It might be that this position is customarily referred to as "Colonel".
     
  9. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Commander Red Shirt

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    I see your where you are coming from. In current the current military, though, Colonel in the Army is equivalent to Captain in the Navy, so it would have to be Lt. Colonel for Kira if she only had 3 pips, which would still be addressed as "Colonel" in most dialogue, but it would be hard to believe that the main title itself would shorten the rank.

    What I'm suggesting might be the case, essentially, is that what you are saying about the Bajoran forces ranks vs. Starfleet ranks is basically true, but also applies within Starfleet to an extent. That is, Starfleet would not call an officer who had not served as captain of a vessel "Captain," but "Colonel" instead.

    This is basically the only rank that this matter would apply to, since the term "Captain" in an organization with ships could imply the position of a ship-commander. Colonel would not imply that.
     
  10. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But they do call them captain, because the rank is distinct from the position. Scotty was a captain in the engineering division and was not called colonel. The only actual Starfleet officer to ever be called "Colonel" was an admiral.
     
  11. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, West's uniform was a hot-mess of contradictions even by Undiscovered Country standards, never mind Star Trek standards generally. Partly due to budget difficulties on the movie in general, partly due to Bob Fletcher not being involved and partly because West was actually a composite character for an admiral (probably the distant predecessor of VADM Hanson of Starfleet Tactical from BOBW) and a "junior officer" (potentially a CAPT or CMDR equivalent and therefore "Colonel") who gave the actual briefing and may have been the Commanding Officer of the actual rescue force. While I'm not convinced that scaleable USMC-style MAGTFs are a standard peacetime part of Starfleet, use of a SEALs/Royal Marines Commando style "specialist cold-weather warfare unit" in this particular incident makes sense.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What contradictions are there on that uniform? The flag braid on the flap seems to be there, as well as the assorted pins that ought to be fine for a Vice Admiral named Cornell West.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  13. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Except that's never been the name of character, that's never been suggested as the name of the character and is totally fanon so should not be presented as fact, to argue against there being contradictions.

    Now, if presented as a speculative... then it's a reasonable fix that has no major issues (although I'd argue that the strap should have a dark green or dark blue hash on it if he's supposed to be a security or combat division officer based on Fletcher's notes. However, he's hardly the first violator of that so... "shrugs".
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...Did we ever get a non-white Flag strap or collar in any of the movies?

    Not saying it couldn't exist, just like one admiral out of fifty in TNG might wear mustard instead of maroon. But it doesn't appear to have been a thing in the TOS movies at all.

    As for "never having been suggested"... You mean almost twenty years of my life wasted? :eek: :p (We should note that basically every admiral in the movies goes by his name, sometimes given name, rather than his rank plus name!)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Only if they're Starfleet Marines. ;)

    (in my headcanon, that's what Colonel West was.)

    srsly though, there have been captains in Starfleet who aren't in command of ships. "Court Martial", for example. And Stocker surely used to be a captain, and he sat behind a desk for his whole career.

    As for West's uniform, here comes the headcanon again: IMHO, they didn't give him a SFMC uniform because West was a one-shot character. Why bother designing a whole new uniform when it would most likely never be used again?
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or then there is no SFMC (or at least said Corps has no uniform of its own, nor do the Engineering Corps or the Medical Corps or the Terraforming Corps) and the uniform here was appropriate for the flag officer through and through?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    All flag officer straps where at least partially white, although a few had an additional colour slash over the white one, suggesting officers outside the line officer community.

    Fletcher's notes offered "Office of Inspector General Special Forces" as part of the contingent embarked as "Starfleet Security", who would presumably fill the first responder roles of "boarding team", "commando" and "base defence". However, in RW these might be more readily compared with a scaled up NSWC (commanded by a RADM), or the UK's RMC (commanded by Major General) rather than the USMC (commanded by two full GENs).
     
  18. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Commander Red Shirt

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    Scotty served onboard as a crewmember of a ship at the time he was called captain. I'm suggesting that there is a very rare case of people, like (probably) Commodore Stocker, who has been in either administration, marines, or space-station work all their career, and when they would reach the rank of Captain, are called Colonel instead, either literally, or as an additional positional title due to the fact that they are not shipboard personell. It would be a very rare case, but not impossible, if Starfleet is a "combined service."
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    I don't think they "combined" ranks.