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Thoughts on future soldiers

One thing that is doable today, but politically unfeasible would be implanting GPS chips and possibly medical sensors under the skin of soldiers to track their locations and status.

Soldiers by and large are overwhelmingly opposed to the idea, but eventually some government will have the gall to do it.

And I'm sure some Special Forces units already do it.
one could put GPS chips in the helmets..

I remember the old 1980s future combat soldier which looked amazingly like the following..US Army 2030CE concept

robotroop-pic.jpg


except for the color (it was green not tan.) and some minor helmet details..

Ohh and the 1980s one included a 1 shot backpack mortar and a 1 shot backpack anti-helicopter missile

I remember that too, but it wasn't green.

soldiers.jpg
 
blah blah blah

I'm not even going to go point-by-point on this. I am going to repeat that all of your argument has nothing to do with the whether or not omnipresent secure battlefield links are a good thing. Most of your arguments amount to grasping at straws that would apply to ANY kind of combat or intelligence situation, regardless of the technology involved.

No, because we're discussing a vast, vast increase in the rate and type of information flow. From the Rosenbergs, the Walker spy ring, to the latest Wiki leaker, nothing leaked could provide real-time targeting solutions.

Take the idea of having real time video and GPS position stream from every soldier. Leak that information into an enemy artillery battalion and they don't need recon or artillery spotters because we would be providing that for them. That vastly increases the effectiveness of the enemy's first barrage, allows pin-point targeting of any survivors - no matter what they do, and provides ongoing battle damage assessment - all in real time. That capability would be far beyond what the US had in the Gulf War, when it could be hours or days to get a reliable battle damage assessment. It would also be better than anything our own artillery units could even dream about. "Each target will wear a video feed and give us a GPS position? Get outta here!"

Yet, you seem to completely miss the biggest point of all of this when you go on about "overrunning a headquarters." The whole point of a network like this is so you can place a HQ far out of range of the actual fighting. This tells me that you're not really familiar with the technology and concepts involved. You also appear to lack the vision of how to apply this kind of technology by insisting it's more valuable to an enemy and largely worthless to the chain of command.

We lead from the REAR! Way way to the rear! In fact, from the 13th at Emerald Greens in Tampa. That'll boost morale and troop effectiveness. Not that morale will be very high once our soldiers are turned into remotely operated waldos controlled by goobers and REMFs in Maryland, unless we outsource control to a call center in Bangalor.

Also, no one cares about your supposed friend, your opinion of the American Education system. Both statements are entirely irrelevant and are an attempt to undermine the real issue at hand.

And the hubris becomes overwhelming... :lol:

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the Pentagon is debating whether we should reissue Browning 1917 BAR's and 1950's era M-14's to our troops in Afghanistan because we're having trouble with Taliban who stubbornly fire on us from outside the effective range of the M-4. Our soldiers need good weapons, not toys designed to make desk-bound mouse jockeys feel omnipotent - yet completely safe.
 
You keep repeating the same thing over and over about how some traitor can compromise everything with a thumb drive. Well, hey, some guy can pick your car lock, so what don't we get rid of them too, because there's always some chance that someone will get in, why bother in the first place? Let's never, ever, try to make a lock that's practically impossible to pick just because some guy can steal your keys while you're eating lunch. Your "argument" is a non sequitor, a complete fallacy, and is not really an argument, but an attempt to distract from the topic.

And hey, since the idea of a remote command post with a complete picture of the battlefield is so cowardly, let's make those generals man up. Stick them in bright red coats and plant them on horseback with a revolver and a sabre. If they want to figure out what's happening they better learn bugle signals. This is ultimately an appeal to emotion, also a fallacy, and therefore also a bankrupt argument.

Your talking points are ridiculous, they're not even arguments, and repeating them ad nausium in an attempt to browbeat someone is trolling. I'm not going to feed the troll anymore. I'm done.
 
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You keep repeating the same thing over and over about how some traitor can compromise everything with a thumb drive. Well, hey, some guy can pick your car lock, so what don't we get rid of them too, because there's always some chance that someone will get in, why bother in the first place? Let's never, ever, try to make a lock that's practically impossible to pick just because some guy can steal your keys while you're eating lunch. Your "argument" is a non sequitor, a complete fallacy, and is not really an argument, but an attempt to distract from the topic.

When was the last time you took your entire life savings out in cash, along with that of your parents and family members, and left it locked in your car on a busy street in a bad section of Chicago slums for a month? We're not talking about an enemy soldier stealing a jeep. We're talking about an enemy country or alliance running the tables on our military through a coordinated effort to:

1) infiltrate our data networks at the highest levels
They've already done this repeatedly.
2) subvert people entrusted with our communications security.
They've already done this repeatedly, such as the famous cases in the NSA and Navy
3) subvert people at high levels of US intelligence agencies.
They've already done this repeatedly, such as with Aldrich Ames.

Along with that is the constant leaking of highly classified information by flaky people with an axe to grind, a grudge to settle, or because they think the left will crown them heroes for undermining the evil military/industrial complex.

But in most of the past cases the political and public relations damage was very limited due to the dry nature of the subject matter, amounting to thousands of pages of boring.

Leak one picture of a girl (who looks amazingly like Danny Bonaduce) pointing at a naked human pyramid and your quiet little war becomes a nightmare insurgency that drags on for years and costs hundreds of billions of extra dollars and thousands of American lives. Imagine if Wikileaks had gotten a hold of live video footage back in 2003 showing an ambiguous engagement that could be painted as American soldiers executing civilians?

Of all this video your wanting to create, 99% of it will be watched by nobody, not even in the military, because it will show a corporal staring at weeds and slurping from his canteen. Of the exciting 1% that shows actual combat, 90% will show American soldiers shooting at a shadowy something way out in the distance, 6% will show American soldiers shooting at a definite bad guy, 3% will show American soldiers shooting at somebody who could, out of context, definitely be portrayed as a civilian, and 1% will show American soldiers doing an oops and definitely shooting a civilian, possibly repeatedly to make sure they're dead.

Since we'll be getting video of every engagement from every perspective, all the time, even the 3% of righteous shoots will look bad from one angle or another. An increased op tempo should give us several apparent civilian executions a day.

Those videos will bounce all around the command HQ, get bounced over to a bunch of IG's, up to the Pentagon, forwarded to some JAG people, thumb-drived over to the State Department (in case there's any fallout with the host government), and even bounce into new departments specifically created to handle such incidents, an inevitable result of previously leaked videos. Some of the videos will be trumped up and misconstrued by military people whose promotions depend on prosecuting such cases to the fullest. This has already happened constantly in Iraq, so pretending it won't happen in the future is absurd.

Since the video will be sent to a wide range of people with political axes to grind or who oppose whatever war we're fighting, it will be leaked to the media, including the foreign media, and it will be leaked in volume. I trickle will become a torrent and the occasional scandalous news story will become a drumbeat of public outrage from around the world.

And hey, since the idea of a remote command post with a complete picture of the battlefield is so cowardly, let's make those generals man up. Stick them in bright red coats and plant them on horseback with a revolver and a sabre. If they want to figure out what's happening they better learn bugle signals. This is ultimately an appeal to emotion, also a fallacy, and therefore also a bankrupt argument.

Yeah, like Patton, Rommel, and all the other great generals who actually rode with their troops and got shot at. Rommel was under fire pretty frequently, as was the commander of German forces at D-Day, Hans von Luck, who was under fire almost constantly during various stages of the war.

Patton was actually killed by the enemy at nearly point blank range, and as an aside, I'm partly named after Lt. General McNair, under Patton, who was killed at St. Lo in 1944. (My uncle served in Patton's 5th Army and was personally cussed out by Eisenhower while on guard duty in the woods.) Major General Rose, commander of the 3rd Armored division and the first across the Siegfried line, was likewise killed in combat when he found himself pulling a pistol on several German tanks in close quarters.

From my home state of Kentucky, the son of our governor (a former confederate general himself), Lt. General Simon Bolivar Buckner Jr, was killed by enemy fire at Okinawa.

Major General Clarence Tinker (an Osage!) was killed in direct combat, flying a B-24 against the Japanese forces attacking Midway.

In more modern times, Major General Keith Ware, commander of the 1st Infantry Division in Vietnam, was shot down in combat near Loc Ninh as he made repeated low passes over the battlefield.

Along with those famous figures are all the generals in Iraq, where of course they were completely safe in between daily mortar and rocket attacks.

But all those generals were just fallacies....

Your talking points are ridiculous, they're not even arguments, and repeating them ad nausium in an attempt to browbeat someone is trolling. I'm not going to feed the troll anymore. I'm done.

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to illustrate that just because we could field some really nifty high-bandwidth gadgets in combat doesn't mean we should, especially not without very carefully weighing the potential harm against the arguably slight benefits. After all, if live video was such a war-winning force mutliplier how come we're still facing an uphill battle in Afghanistan, almost ten years after we put boots on the ground and cameras in the air?

It's certainly useful to have aerial video and attack capabilities, vastly more useful than yet another ground view of rocks and trees, which is what helmet cams are going to show. But even more useful to use would be if the Taliban started broadcasting video feeds or anything at all.

I say this since modifying a Sidewinder to attack a particular cell-phone in a city teaming with cell phone traffic is pretty simple (the Isrealis already did it), so having a Chinese cell-phone sweat shop modify a Chinese or Egyptian knockoff of a Russian SA-7 Strella missile to target any high-frequency signal out in the middle of the desert should be pretty trivial.

We would of course use burst mode radios, but you can't use burst mode for live video because you'll still have a 30 Hz pulse repetition frequency, almost perfect for missile guidance updates. So we would immediately stop broadcasting video and use our radios more sparingly. Then our soldiers would dig a hole and bury the useless accessories. Finally, the sergeant would take charge because the detached, uninformed Tweets coming from somewhere in the bowels of the Pentagon would be worse than useless. And we're back where we started except without the close links between our troops and their chain of command, since all the officers would be in the condiment line at a Fudruckers in Virginia, mumbling "But it's 256 bit!"
 
While both sides of this argument have merit, no one has mentioned a very critical part of it: the EMP. As mentioned the Germans went around the oh-so-effective Maginot line, an EMP would destroy most electronics and nullify the need to crack encryption and the advantage of having it.

So far the only people I've heard talk about EMP defense are conspiracy theorists talking about the Nuclear Apocalypse and how the EMP would wipe out their data.... so not exactly reputable sources. I'm not sure there could be any defense for EMP other than turning off a computer (which ruins the point) or having a computer turn on and off again so fast the EMP bypasses it while it is off.. but how the computer would work, and how you could possibly time it so it ALWAYS bypassed it, remains hazy.
That's why a very big part of military training involves old fashioned methods of navigation and communication. All Army officers, for example, need to pass multiple land navigation courses using just a compass and a map. Plus, training exercises often involve maneuvers without communications gear
 
This pissing contest ends now. Take it up in a private message war; you're flooding the thread with your arguments and have gone off track from the original point of the thread, which is the individual soldier of the not to distant future.

Now. Back on track.

I've really never liked the idea of soldiers wearing full helmets. It just seems like a bad idea to obstruct vision so much. Yeah, I understand it enables vision in hostile environments (like sand), but goggles do that and don't obstruct as much. Also encasing the soldier's head in a helmet really depends that their communication system NEVER fails, because unlike the movies you can't hear that well wearing a fully encased helmet.

It is possible they could drill microholes in the sides and mouth for sound to transmit, but that makes structural weaknesses and the whole point of the helmet is to protect their heads. If there's a crack in the armor and it shatters next to a grenade or when it gets shot then it's actually much worse because you've added glass or composite shrapnel along with the force of the bullet/grenade.

It seems logical to eventually make a helmet-like system, but I just don't see it like that.
 
Sorry about the debate, but not all military ideas are worth pursuing. For example, the Commanche advanced stealth helicopter project was killed by real-world experience in Iraq in 2003, when 30 Apaches went on an attack mission and only one came back undamaged after only 30 minutes of combat. One was downed and its crew was captured, and the rest averaged a dozen to two dozen hits, taking a month to repair. The army realized that people succeed in shooting down helicopters because they can see and hear them, and no amount of fancy stealth systems can fix that. So all it took was half an hour of disastrous real-world experience to kill one of the Army's major big-budget high-tech weapons programs.

But back to helmets. They're basing their future helmet on motorcycle helmets, which even motorcycle riders don't like. What's worrisome is that nobody can actually shoot for spit in a motorcycle helmet because you can't get a cheek weld to the stock, which you'd think would be the first thing the military would worry about.

The apex of military helmet design is the armet, developed in the 1400's. Here's the wiki on it.

So, take a current military helmet, which protects the skull proper. Add cheek pieces which are hinged to the skull (of the helmet) somewhere near the ear, so that they mate along the centerline of the face. To open them, they need to pop-up a little to the side, possibly drop down (because the top of the cheek pieces comes under the bottom of your visor), pivot open a slight bit (because they come under your chin, and then pivot backwards to lay pretty flat against the the top/side or back of the helmet. Ideally this should be spring loaded so you can just slap the side of your head or press a panel on the helmet, so you don't have to fumble with them in combat.

So now you have a helmet with cheek pieces that can be left up or up and back most of the time, leaving all the full-face freedom soldiers currently have. The cheek pieces can be opened independently so a shooter can keep half his face, the more exposed half, protected while still getting a good weld to the stock. The cheek pieces are fairly independent of the visor, which in an armet came down to lock the cheek pieces in place, but that's probably no longer a requirement because swarming peasants aren't trying to pry you open like a clam.

Various layers of optics can share a hinge like the old visor, and the back of the helmet and the cheek pieces could also have an attacked layer of protection for the neck.

Not only would it look ten times cooler than a motorcycle helmet, it would actually be useful protection without making every soldier want to scream, rip it off, and throw it in a river.
 
^You can shield against EMP. Air Force One, along with any part of the national command authority (which handles orders for nuclear launch) is hardened against a nuclear class EMP.

blah blah blah


Yeah they overuse EMP in Sci fi movies...they never seem to realize the machines could easily shield themselves in The Matrix. Tanks are shielded from EMP. The B-29s in WWII that dropped the atomic bombs were shielded!
 
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FFW replaces the FCS and Land Warrior concepts..looks like exoskeletons and networking are the big by-words for the future soldier and lots of the concepts are in WORKING prototypes (Bleex). I think some sort of adaptive camo is also likely in the next 30 years.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/f/ffw-atd.htm

http://www.rangermade.us/store/catalog/Army_Technology.php

http://www.rangermade.us/graphics/2020prototype.jpg

The real Iron Man:

http://bleex.me.berkeley.edu/bleex.htm

gturner said:
Patton was actually killed by the enemy at nearly point blank range, and as an aside, I'm partly named after Lt. General McNair, under Patton, who was killed at St. Lo in 1944.

Patton was killed in a car accident!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton#Accident_and_death

RAMA
 
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Yeah, I was going to mention that fact. Patton was killed on his way home after the war ended due to a jeep malfunction.

Anyway.

Those links are more along the lines of what I was looking for. The powered assist is interesting, and surprisingly not that bulky, but it still is much too bulky and complicated. I imagine that system has zero redundancy which is a no-no in a combat situation, especially if failure means the soldier immediately can't move.

The third helmet design in that second link looks much more feasible because of the open face which doesn't restrict vision and it can most likely contain an anti-fog fan. It still does scare me a little that soldiers could be faceless, but I suppose tactically that's the superior option.
 
Yeah, I was going to mention that fact. Patton was killed on his way home after the war ended due to a jeep malfunction.

Oops. I was confusing Patton's death with an American officer who was killed in the closing days of the war when his jeep turned a corner to face a kid in the Nazi youth brigades holding a panzerfaust.
 
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There is a growing sentiment in infantry circles that we're carrying too much and growing too immobile. We need to lighten that load.

A lot of that is temporary. As the electronics gets smaller and smarter, I'd expect everything to be lumped into a single, lightweight unit with a couple of backup batteries. I'd go with the other people, and stick it in the helmet, but allow it to be removable so you can access its info outside of combat. Body armor will reach a point where you can either bulk it up to proof it against 50 caliber, or slim it down and still keep 30 cal rating.

In the meanwhile, we may see a return to the concept of light and heavy infantry.

Its not temporary over history infantrymen have carried a similar basic load. If the rifle and radio gets lighter something else is found to add to his load. More body armor is the first visible item. Because X weighs less a General will think I can also have the soldiers carry Y and I won't need another truck, flight etc to get it up to him, maybe too late. The same concerns Caliburn24 have pointed to were concerns while I was serving 25 years ago.

Just read memoirs of soldiers. The 1982 Paras in the Falklands, the 1944 paratroopers and the First Special Service Force without the trucks of the regular infantry and armored divisions carried 100lb loads. Doughboys on the 1918 western front carried the same 60lb loads as today's soldiers.

One basic difference is now there is no draft. People double volunteering, for the service and then close combat infantry are probably in better physical shape then the mass of militiamen of eras past. He is more likely to have had a better diet, pumped iron maybe even have dabbled in steroids before his volunteering then soldiers of the past who carried a similar load.
 
Doughboys on the 1918 western front carried the same 60lb loads as today's soldiers.

In some sectors, such as Ypres, they carried 60 lbs only before the mud soaked into their thick wool coats. After one particular failed attack they weighed one of the great-coats at it alone weighed about 70 pounds. That partly explains why advancing even several hundred yards seemed impossible.

On a related note, WW-I epitomized the 'lead from the rear' mentality and the generals fell into such disrepute that it contributed to the overthrow of several governments. After yet another costly failed advance at Ypres, the bloodbath having gone on for over a year, one of the generals finally drove to the front to see what the problem was. He beheld the vast sea of wasit deep mud and broke down weeping, saying "We sent men to fight in this!"
 
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