Thoughts about TNG episodes you just watched?

[GroovyAnimeWarrior]

Hi, first time thread maker, wasn't sure how this works.

I'm rewatching various TNG eps, just for fun and to touch base with the ol' fav show. I didn't see where to post stuff like that. There are rewatch threads for the series in order, usually mainly one person's experience with it I think, also cool.

So pretty much, my thought was this could be a thread for anyone to post about an episode they just watched, maybe throw out some questions, and open to discussion. Plus, a place for me to put my impressions on rewatching various out of order eps years later.

But let me know anything I'm missing about how this stuff works here, thanks! First try. Also I assume from the rules the spoiler tags aren't used for the older shows, and we can post what happens?

I just watched TNG s5e17, The Outcast. Thought it was great! Really good smooth stuff, connected with Riker and Soren, thought it was like a mini movie. Just solid stuff, also liked the Troi and Worf stuff. And I like how Riker and Troi kissed, I'm just saying I don't see other friends doing that on the ship! I think there's something there folks!

It is funny that the "action" part of the episode, the brief shaky ship things and the anomaly thing they were dealing with, was so not what the episode was about. And those scenes were so by the book my brain almost didn't even notice they happened. I feel like it was 4 minutes total of the episode, which is fine, the episode works great as a character relationship one, and with the ol' sci-fi allegory for modern day topics.

I'll say one thing that stands out is the ending, which with its unhappy turn feels like the end of a Miami Vice episode. Which is not a bad thing, just feels a little unique for a Star Trek TNG ep ending, the way it was done, and I wonder if it would've been rated higher on imdb etc if it had a different ending. But it works, solid message and stuff.

Anyways, always a pleasure watching TNG. This one I watched because I remembered it the least, and I feel like I got more out of it as an older viewer. And now pretty much I'm thinking I'll watch say 26 episodes from throughout the series or something, a little refresher cruise. And feel free to post stuff like this you do too!

 

[Ragitsu]

The upsetting ending was intentional.

 

[Tosk]

I don't think they were saying it was accidental.

 

[AntonyF]

The Outcast I find interesting as at the time it was their way to try and tell a gay story but without doing so, dancing around the topic etc. But they accidentally came up with an episode that is more today to non-binary people, and to some extent trans people.

As for me, I've just gone from season two and watched the first couple of season three. I have this weird dichotomy as like most of fandom I can see season three onwards is when the show took flight and is better. But as I grow older I more and more like the first two seasons. There's a scrappy energy that I feel goes and there's a certain stiffness at the beginning of season three... and the first episode Beverly is straight back Wesley-Wesley-Wesley talk and Ensigns of Command is just pretty blah... I've slowed down in my rewatch already.

That said Survivors is next which is strong, I will get back on it.

 

[GroovyAnimeWarrior]

Just watched The Big Goodbye from s1, very fun stuff, quality rewatch. I like seeing Picard have fun and let off some steam, and some charming Data and Beverly bits. Whalen was cool for a one time character, I took a peek at his wiki page, would've been fun if he came back once or twice.

It even has Dick Miller! I liked the wonder and the vibe and everything, and the gag with Picard's message at the end was just excellent. Also I rewatched First Contact last month, so that reminded me of ol' Dix. I'm a fan of Chandler too (only read The Big Sleep so far), and definitely love Bogart movies and noir, so that's always nice to play around with.

Maybe I'll rewatch another episode or two with Dixon Hill sometime (Manhunt and Clues).

 

[Qonundrum]

"Pen Pals" has a few gaffes and odd handling of Data (as if compensating for something - he of all beings would know better than to disobey several Starfleet protocols, but maybe something remnant of Dr Ira Graves?!), but - dang - if the presentation and story flow are fluid and compelling, and still has some good ideas and character moments (it gets Pulaski to finally accept Data as willfully sentient), it's impossible not to like. Decent Wesley story as well.

 

[Qonundrum]

This one's more about unsung series continuity than anything else, and a quick disclaimer as you might not want to be eating brunch and/or midnight snacks while reading this little entry:

In "The Schizoid Man", Dr Graves uploads his mind into Data (at speeds faster than 2400 baud I'd presume). later, he leaves Data's body and puts his mind into the ship's computer. It's a neat trick if you can do it, but when the Borg appear in "Q Who" and take bits of the ship to be analyzed and pun not intended, that's where the Borg figured out enough of Graves research to determine (a) humanity may have more to value than what's inside the starship and (b) how to easily assimilate humans into their Collective as the data they read would have had biological information on the species serving in Starfleet as well. While it's also true that emphasis was placed on the Borg pilfering only technology and, prior to STFC or Voyager the Borg were treated as a single species that also had babies ("I, Borg", "Q Who", etc), this fits. Post STFC where we're now fully told of Species 8675309 and all the others assimilated, it doesn't mean they didn't do biological assimilation prior to Locutus. Indeed, in terms of resource usage, it also makes sense that the Borg would focus on technology first and foremost - if the biological fritters who made it aren't "up to par" then assimilating them may or may not be worth their time. This technological progress is a litmus test to the Borg the same way Vulcans seeking out warp signatures from anywhere was a litmus test for bringing in Earth (STFC).


Yep, all of that started in my latest rewatch of "The Schizoid Man" of recent and as memories of all the other episodes lit up, it started to congeal. Like that bowl of grape flavored gelatin, and did you know that gelatin used to be made from a ground-up tree root but this root was superseded by taking ground up collagen and other fun gooey bits of cows and horsies, such as skin and tendons and even bones, instead?

 

[Mojochi]

In "The Schizoid Man", Dr Graves uploads his mind into Data (at speeds faster than 2400 baud I'd presume). later, he leaves Data's body and puts his mind into the ship's computer. It's a neat trick if you can do it, but when the Borg appear in "Q Who" and take bits of the ship to be analyzed and pun not intended, that's where the Borg figured out enough of Graves research to determine (a) humanity may have more to value than what's inside the starship and (b) how to easily assimilate humans into their Collective as the data they read would have had biological information on the species serving in Starfleet as well. While it's also true that emphasis was placed on the Borg pilfering only technology and, prior to STFC or Voyager the Borg were treated as a single species that also had babies ("I, Borg", "Q Who", etc), this fits. Post STFC where we're now fully told of Species 8675309 and all the others assimilated, it doesn't mean they didn't do biological assimilation prior to Locutus. Indeed, in terms of resource usage, it also makes sense that the Borg would focus on technology first and foremost - if the biological fritters who made it aren't "up to par" then assimilating them may or may not be worth their time. This technological progress is a litmus test to the Borg the same way Vulcans seeking out warp signatures from anywhere was a litmus test for bringing in Earth (STFC).

Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe the Borg were only interested in Starfleet tech, like Q had claimed, BUT they then decided to abduct a leadership representative from humanity (Picard) to study it, & then found out that it already HAD a cybernetic part inside it, in the form of an artificial heart?

That artificial heart could've been the whole reason they decided to assimilate the entire species itself, assuming there could be untold fortunes of cybernetic tech inside them, to be mined for future application in drones... or even prosthetically, as that 1st recon drone, (from Q Who) would've noticed on Geordi's face, while it was studying engineering. Picard specifically must've made it seem like humans were PERFECT for assimilating. We'd already began the transition in some ways

I imagine whole scores of Borg drones being retrofit with mechanical hearts after they assimilated Picard, & that they would've jumped at the chance to do similarly with Geordi's visor, had they gotten the opportunity

 

[Qonundrum]

Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe the Borg were only interested in Starfleet tech, like Q had claimed, BUT they then decided to abduct a leadership representative from humanity (Picard) to study it, & then found out that it already HAD a cybernetic part inside it, in the form of an artificial heart?

Yep, but given the size and scope of the Borg, aren't the Borg already vastly more powerful? It is the one unanswered question, which in some ways answers itself but doesn't in others, leaving some fun wiggle room.

Putting aside the artificial heart for a moment, to look solely at the interesting technology, the Borg ship, compared to the Enterprise, for example, could:

• Fly at a faster velocity and overtake
  • Would it really care that this puny thing, which stumbled across their path, might do the same thing differently AND to less efficiency?
• Had more weapons types (such as shield draining technology)
• Had more tools (e.g. carving up planets or ships)
• Masks biological lifesigns
• Was able to quickly adapt so that a second volley of weaponry would be utterly useless
• Was distributed, so if one part of the ship were to fail a redundant component would come online. Very useful given the depths of outer space.)

What we don't know is if they had replicator technology -- and clearly would after taking that bit of saucer to reverse-engineer it.

Or cloaking devices.

To use an analogy, the Borg drive a super sports car. The Enterprise, by comparison, is that one tiny family passenger vehicle with poorly designed fuel tank where one slight tap on the rear and the whole thing blows up as a result. If anything, as metaphor goes, the only possible difference might be fuel efficiency, but the tradeoffs involve would quickly render the comparison moot for what they want to do (technically "what it wants to do" since the Borg is a singular gestalt). Yet the Borg still found the Enterprise, and what it belongs to, worthy enough despite it all and to make a return to take more technology... as well as people and the knowledge of Graves, Picard, LaForge, et al, do all come into play on this as the Borg must have indeed taken enough from the computer to see something of potentially greater interest exists, even if they have their own ways of doing things. (like the good old days of PAL vs NTSC, Betamax vs VHS, etc, hehe!)

Either way, they'd surely be more interested in Klingons or Romulans to get at that sweet sweet cloaking device, and the moment they tractor a ship to carve it up they'd figure that out in a jiffy, since Starfleet records taken might say something exists but not how to build it as such.

What was said in the episodes was vague, since - at face value - the technology alone is a nonissue.
The other big facet would be conquering or assimilating, but why would the Borg care to waste resources on something so small like humanity, which is so poorly matched that they're unmatched? Like a dust bunny on the carpet, it's nothing.

When taking information from the Enterprise (either via the section cut out, or by direct scan by the scout drone), they would have obtained enough information about the ship and species and noticed not just artificial hearts and VISORs. The Borg already do that and more, and have been developing these technologies for far longer than humanity had existed ("thousands of centuries"). Apart from a few extra drones for when their breeding chambers aren't doing it fast enough, but in terms of relative time it'd make more sense that the Borg - after all that time - finally realized it needed to increase ranks via means other than breeding AND extending individual biological life forces via technology but adapt other species to service them. Which is almost akin to slavery, except every drone is a slave in this cybernetic gestalt.
.
So after "Q Who"'s introduction, there's got to be more going on than the surface level that made humanity worthy of being turned into mindless drones, but little really makes the humans look any better and the scout drone already scanned the computer and took back a lot of neat stuff. It just never got said and remained open-ended until the movie era and Voyager since the show pretty much kept to the idea that the Borg was a single race ("I, Borg") and not an amalgamated hodgepodge of species.

That artificial heart could've been the whole reason they decided to assimilate the entire species itself, assuming there could be untold fortunes of cybernetic tech inside them, to be mined for future application in drones... or even prosthetically, as that 1st recon drone, (from Q Who) would've noticed on Geordi's face, while it was studying engineering. Picard specifically must've made it seem like humans were PERFECT for assimilating. We'd already began the transition in some ways

I imagine whole scores of Borg drones being retrofit with mechanical hearts after they assimilated Picard, & that they would've jumped at the chance to do similarly with Geordi's visor, had they gotten the opportunity

It's still a cool idea and possible connection nevertheless, but how do we know they don't have drones with artificial hearts already? (Which is admittedly an assumption...) They have drones with VISOR-like technology that is likely more advanced. If the sections of the computer they took from contained VISOR schematics, then they'd know about it as well. Big "if" for both types of medical devices, though. Yet at the same time, where the Borg are deficient definitely allows opportunity of possibility and for all they were able to do, heart surgery never came easily or at all before. Not all species develop the same ways and all have deficiencies in areas while excelling at others (an easy way to sum up seemingly strange discontinuities as to why the Borg thing humanity is hot to trot with,).

Then again, not until "Voyager" did they ever figure it out to perhaps send two cubes to a fleet of thirty-something ships and be done without any fuss. It's weird they didn't really consider that in targeting the Federation, yet could quickly adapt for any other situation. Except phaser fire, despite figuring out the range of frequencies to block and that still gives way to the laws of physics and which frequencies in the range can emit a directional beam that can subdue or kill, how much power that would require, etc. Maybe, just maybe, scanning the Enterprise did reveal something they could engineer more efficiency in the long-run as a result, or noticing how the artificial heart did things in an interestingly different way, and the Borg then decide to thank the whole species by converting them? (VOY also reduced the Borg and centralizing key components for the sake of plot, they did to the Borg what TNG did with the adults to make Wesley look better in early season 1, there's a fun tangential analogy right there too...)

 

[Mojochi]

Would it really care that this puny thing, which stumbled across their path, might do the same thing differently AND to less efficiency?

After the Q Who encounter, The Borg are actively on the hunt to reacquire the humanoids for some reason. (Guinan's "They will be coming" is true) They are moving in pretty hard, disappearing outposts, by the time Shelby & Hanson show up, on the D. They've got a vested interest in finding the heart of the human home world, for whatever reason

It's still a cool idea and possible connection nevertheless, but how do we know they don't have drones with artificial hearts already? (Which is admittedly an assumption...) They have drones with VISOR-like technology that is likely more advanced. If the sections of the computer they took from contained VISOR schematics, then they'd know about it as well. Big "if" for both types of medical devices, though. Yet at the same time, where the Borg are deficient definitely allows opportunity of possibility and for all they were able to do, heart surgery never came easily or at all before. Not all species develop the same ways and all have deficiencies in areas while excelling at others (an easy way to sum up seemingly strange discontinuities as to why the Borg thing humanity is hot to trot with,).

"We will add your biological & technological distinctiveness to our own"

That's the key. Whether ours is superior or inferior technology is not necessarily their explicit interest. That it is distinctive is the point. Ironically, their goal may be to broaden their variety, thru assimilation (Hugh says as much to Geordi) Technologies aren't always measured by level of advancement, but also by their uniqueness. Different minds come to different solutions, in different ways, and those differences alone are notable, & potentially worthy of inclusion.

That we do that... add tech to our biological being, in itself may represent a potential they'd not pass up. Who knows what else those odd humanoids might be coming up with? Whether or not Picard's heart or Geordi's Visor are as advanced as something they might already have is moot.

Besides, Geordi's visor connects directly to a human brain, unlike Borg ocular devices, which all seem to mount the eye itself, less like an organ implant & more like an organ enhancement. So, I'm of the general opinion that at least some of what we have is perhaps new & maybe useful to them, in some ways.