Thomas Vanderbilt

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Xeris said:

Christopher said:
^^Yeah... besides, if this guy were established as the first UFP president, then somebody could make a crack about the Federation being "the house that Vanderbilt," and you know how we all hate bad puns around here....

You need SERIOUS help, Chris

*Picks up phone. "Is that Puns Anonymous? Great, I've got a new member for your group."*

I would recommend extreme electric sh'oq treatment right away.

 

[BrotherBenny]

You would be against the cl'oq before "they" show up and pronounce him NOT. DEAD.

 

[JD]

THE HORROR, TTTHHHEEE HHOOORRRRORRR!!!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ah, somebody else has seen Ap'oqalypse Now.

 

[Timo]

SFY1 was always non canonical.

...OTOH, what in SFY1 has really been contradicted by ENT, in some more concrete sense than "general spirit"?

A lot of ENT things go unmentioned in the snap-tite novel, yes. But so did the existence of Romulans or Klingons or Cardassians until those adversaries had their introductory episodes. The clique of characters in Friedman's book could have their own little show without paying heed to the higher-level politics of people like Samuels, Archer or Vanderbilt, or Thorpe or Dannon if you want to dig a bit deeper.

I like the idea of peacefully, noncoercively persuading people to adopt democracy instead of having it be imposed in an act of neo-imperialism, too.

A lot would depend on whether the primary proponent of Earth-style democracy, that is, our home planet, would be in a position to practice neo-imperialism. Somehow I think the 2160s Earth would still be the future version of Switzerland rather than the future version of United States when it comes to alliances and negotiations. Earth might convince the allies that the system as portrayed in AotF is a good and tested thing, but the allies would still want to dictate who becomes the first President or Prime Minister to hold the strings. And they would get what and whom they wanted, even if it was a human puppet.

And I really hate the idea of linking him to the real-life Vanderbilt family, because that just seems elitist to me. "Oh, hey, the rich and the powerful today will still be rich and powerful in the 22nd Century!"

Then again, if this isn't shown, then are we to think that the birth of the Federation was one of those regular spiteful revolutions where the previously powerful are deposed and beheaded "just because"...?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Timo said:

SFY1 was always non canonical.

...OTOH, what in SFY1 has really been contradicted by ENT, in some more concrete sense than "general spirit"?

They have a different name for the UE space force, and the term "Starfleet" seems to be entirely new to them. It also depicts the President of United Earth as being actively involved in policy decisions (implying a presidential system), whereas in a parliamentary republic, that role usually falls to the Prime Minister, which is what The Good That Men Do establishes and what "Demons"/"Terra Prime" imply.

I like the idea of peacefully, noncoercively persuading people to adopt democracy instead of having it be imposed in an act of neo-imperialism, too.

A lot would depend on whether the primary proponent of Earth-style democracy, that is, our home planet, would be in a position to practice neo-imperialism. Somehow I think the 2160s Earth would still be the future version of Switzerland rather than the future version of United States when it comes to alliances and negotiations.

Agreed. United Earth is definitely not the kind of interstate superpower that the United States has been since World War II; in point of fact, I'm not sure that there's really an analogue in real-world history for a relatively weak state that convinces formerly hostile powerful states to become allies and then to integrate into one new state.

Earth might convince the allies that the system as portrayed in AotF is a good and tested thing,

Actually, if we wanna get really picky, the AotF system is not new and tested; it's a completely original design that contains elements of presidentialism (as can be found in the US), parliamentaryism (as can be found in Ireland or Italy), and semi-presidentialism (as can be found in France), but is not completely like any of them. It's a very different conception of democratic governance.

but the allies would still want to dictate who becomes the first President or Prime Minister to hold the strings. And they would get what and whom they wanted, even if it was a human puppet.

Maybe. On the other hand, maybe Andor, Vulcan, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri all entered it as willing and equal partners instead of as distrustful agents out to manipulate the system for their own gain. And maybe the first Federation President was a George Washington of his era -- someone trusted and respected by ALL of the founding political actors.

And I really hate the idea of linking him to the real-life Vanderbilt family, because that just seems elitist to me. "Oh, hey, the rich and the powerful today will still be rich and powerful in the 22nd Century!"

Then again, if this isn't shown, then are we to think that the birth of the Federation was one of those regular spiteful revolutions where the previously powerful are deposed and beheaded "just because"...?

No. In fact, I see no reason to presume that the birth of the Federation even had to involve anyone being deposed. I rather imagine that the UE government would have long ago gotten rid of dynastic politics.

 

[JD]

Sci said:

Timo said:


but the allies would still want to dictate who becomes the first President or Prime Minister to hold the strings. And they would get what and whom they wanted, even if it was a human puppet.

Maybe. On the other hand, maybe Andor, Vulcan, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri all entered it as willing and equal partners instead of as distrustful agents out to manipulate the system for their own gain. And maybe the first Federation President was a George Washington of his era -- someone trusted and respected by ALL of the founding political actors.

And I really hate the idea of linking him to the real-life Vanderbilt family, because that just seems elitist to me. "Oh, hey, the rich and the powerful today will still be rich and powerful in the 22nd Century!"

Like Archer? Oh, wait didn't it say somewhere that he did become UFP President? Where was that?

 

[Trent Roman]

^ The biography of Archer from the Defiant that mirror-Archer reads. Whether that's canon is questionable, since it's just something seen on a display.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Smiley]

That's a lot of discussion for a person only mentioned in what is essentially a deleted scene or Easter egg. If Vanderbilt is a UFP president, then so is Martin Madden (who?).

 

[Sci]

Trent Roman said:
^ The biography of Archer from the Defiant that mirror-Archer reads. Whether that's canon is questionable, since it's just something seen on a display.

Of course, with regards to Archer being the first Federation President, the problem with that screen, besides its questionable canonical status (though God knows that Memory Alpha accepts anything and everything that appears for two frames of film on a computer screen in Trek as being canonical...), is that it establishes Archer to have become Federation President in 2184. (Which alone is inconsistent with the novels, since the four-year cycle established in Articles of the Federation and A Time for War, A Time For Peace mean that he wouldn't have become Federation President until 2185.)

Personally, I'm rooting for Nathan Samuels to become the first UFP President. (.... !!! I should make a "Samuels '61" icon in the style of the various Obama icons floating around the BBS!)

 

[Timo]

To be sure, the bio itself never claims Archer would have been the first UFP President.

And I don't see why we should think that the UFP political or electoral structure should have remained stable for 200 years. If it was such a novel thing, surely it would undergo quite a few permutations until settling into some sort of a repeating pattern.

Also, it would make some sense to hold immediate elections at any interruption of a presidential term, rather than have the office be held by a person the people did not elect as their President. As you have pointed out, this is not a pure-bred presidential system as such - and the French and our native Finnish semi-presidential models don't feature the concept of a Vice President at all. If the term of the President ends prematurely, the Prime Minister temporarily takes over and there's a new election ASAP. So even if a four-year cycle was found advantageous from the very start, it may have been altered by resignations, deaths or other incidents. (The Min Zife thing happened so close to the end of his second term that it wouldn't have proved anything one way or the other.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Timo said:
And I don't see why we should think that the UFP political or electoral structure should have remained stable for 200 years. If it was such a novel thing, surely it would undergo quite a few permutations until settling into some sort of a repeating pattern.

I see no reason to presume that. The United States has a had a stable system for 219 years. Great Britain has retained its parliament/cabinet form of government for 287 years.

Seems to me that the early Federation would only undergo a truly dramatic shift in governance if it was politically unstable, but there's no evidence that any of the founding societies are such. The Andorian Empire is known to have retained its parliamentary democracy for centuries; there's no evidence one way or the other with regards to the Tellarites or Alpha Centauri. The Vulcans seem to have become unstable during the 2150s, but that seems also to have been an anomaly in Vulcan history. And the entire premise of Star Trek is that Earth achieves Magical Political Stability and Freedom (TM) after World War III so as to make it a near-utopia.

Also, it would make some sense to hold immediate elections at any interruption of a presidential term, rather than have the office be held by a person the people did not elect as their President.

Yeah, and that's what Articles and War/Peace establish: That when a Federation President resigns, dies, or becomes otherwise incapable of performing his/her/hir/its duties, the Federation Council appoints a President Pro Tempore who governs for one month while a special election is called.

As you have pointed out, this is not a pure-bred presidential system as such - and the French and our native Finnish semi-presidential models don't feature the concept of a Vice President at all. If the term of the President ends prematurely, the Prime Minister temporarily takes over and there's a new election ASAP. So even if a four-year cycle was found advantageous from the very start, it may have been altered by resignations, deaths or other incidents.

Except that Articles established that the mechanism you just described has only happened twice in UFP history: With Hiram Roth's death in the 2280s and Min Zife's resignation in 2279.

(The Min Zife thing happened so close to the end of his second term that it wouldn't have proved anything one way or the other.)

Actually, it happened a full year before the next election. Zife resigned and Bacco took office in Sept./Oct. of 2379; Zife's original term would have run throughout 2380, and the next presidential term would not have commenced until 2381. So the presidential term cycle is now off by about a year and three months or so.

 

[Timo]

I see no reason to presume that.

Not presume that, but allow for that. That's the least we could do to alleviate the problems of the writers who take it unto themselves to create century upon century of consistency...

Except that Articles established that the mechanism you just described has only happened twice in UFP history: With Hiram Roth's death in the 2280s and Min Zife's resignation in 2279.

And that's KRAD's own damn fault. He should have left the other incident hanging in the air, to allow for future stories. Who knows, perhaps some other writer would have turned that one into a major adventure for President Archer or something?

Seems to me that the early Federation would only undergo a truly dramatic shift in governance if it was politically unstable, but there's no evidence that any of the founding societies are such.

Unstability in a political assembly today doesn't require the individual representatives to be unstable... Just putting together the dissimilar if stable cultures of Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites might have been enough to require three or four major reboots of the UFP system before it really got going.

In the end, it's not as if anybody has a competing candidate for the first UFP President. The old Franz Joseph manual suggests that a UFP Council Governor by the name Thorpe held the strings in the early stages of the game, signing the Romulan Peace Treaty; that, too, should be quite possible without contradicting AotF as such. President Vanderbilt could have gained his powers after the signing, by means not used for electing later Presidents; he might also have served a term of nonstandard length.

Perhaps he wouldn't "count" in certain types of history writing because of that nonstandardness? Many a nation has started out with a leader whose powers were directly inherited by a series of successors, but who differed from those successors by virtue of being the first. Sometimes such trailblazers took on funny titles, but it wouldn't be impossible for the first person into the UFP Presidency to also refer to himself as President.

Also, a simultaneous President of Earth is always a possibility: Samuels could have had Littlejohn arguing politics with him off camera (except for Friedman's camera, that is). Especially if the relationship between the two were as ill-defined as in France. Or as ill-defined as the relationship in Finland has lately become, as the powers of the President are being stripped in favor of a more parliamentary setup.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Timo said:

I see no reason to presume that.

Not presume that, but allow for that. That's the least we could do to alleviate the problems of the writers who take it unto themselves to create century upon century of consistency...

Ah, gotcha. I suppose I just don't see the need for such an allowance, though, because there's really no evidence of any shifts in how the major institutions of the Federation government function. To me, the primary conflict of the early Federation days would probably not so much be institutional -- How is the president selected?, how long are the presidential terms?, etc. -- but federal: How is power distributed between the Federation and its Member States? How much sovereignty do Member States give up? In what areas may the Federation government not get involved? Can the Member States nullify a Federation law without withdrawing from the Federation? Can a Member State unilaterally withdraw, or must it gain the consent of the Federation Council? Do Member State citizens define themselves as citizens of their Member State first, or of the Federation first?

Also, a simultaneous President of Earth is always a possibility: Samuels could have had Littlejohn arguing politics with him off camera (except for Friedman's camera, that is). Especially if the relationship between the two were as ill-defined as in France. Or as ill-defined as the relationship in Finland has lately become, as the powers of the President are being stripped in favor of a more parliamentary setup.

This is just me, but I always figured that the relationship between the UE President and Prime Minister would be akin to that in Ireland, Germany, or Israel, or, if you will, between the British Monarch and PM. I always presumed the United Earth President to be the ceremonial figurehead with limited, if any, powers, who mostly acts only on the advise of the Prime Minister.

 

[Timo]

Well, the seat of the presidential half of UFP government lies in France. Perhaps the good old pseudo-monarchists there donated more to this institution than mere physical trappings?

Ms Littlejohn doesn't seem to be a mere figurehead, even if the Earth President of some recent stories sounds like that. Perhaps the governmental model that accommodated her type of character was copied from the European Alliance which in turn had copied it from France, and subsequently came to be copied for the UFP? Perhaps it all does date back to the aftermath of the French Revolution?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Timo said:
Well, the seat of the presidential half of UFP government lies in France. Perhaps the good old pseudo-monarchists there donated more to this institution than mere physical trappings?

It's possible, but I see no reason to presume so. Though, as I noted, the UFP system is a sort of bizarre presidential, semi-presidential, and parliamentary hybrid (which, BTW, KRAD deserves a lot of credit for having the creativity to devise).

Ms Littlejohn doesn't seem to be a mere figurehead, even if the Earth President of some recent stories sounds like that.

Well, she didn't seem like a mere figurehead in Starfleet: Year One, but the fact that she comes across as an active head of government and not just a ceremonial head of state is one of the things I cited as being contradicted by later novels. There's no reference in The Good That Men Do to Captain Archer and Prime Minister Samuels needing to talk to the President about going to war with the Romulans, for instance.

Perhaps the governmental model that accommodated her type of character was copied from the European Alliance which in turn had copied it from France, and subsequently came to be copied for the UFP? Perhaps it all does date back to the aftermath of the French Revolution?

The Anglophile in me is resisting the urge to make fun of the French in my reply here... It's possible, but, again, I see no reason to presume it's the case. Besides, I'd certainly hope that those later governments were more politically stable than France has been -- how many republics is France up to now, five?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Timo said:
Also, a simultaneous President of Earth is always a possibility: Samuels could have had Littlejohn arguing politics with him off camera (except for Friedman's camera, that is). Especially if the relationship between the two were as ill-defined as in France. Or as ill-defined as the relationship in Finland has lately become, as the powers of the President are being stripped in favor of a more parliamentary setup.

I have no problem with United Earth being a 'hybrid' system. The President is head of State, and the Prime Minister is head of Government. Pretty cut-and-dried, really.

Although, could somebody enlighten me: Exactly what is the line in The Future Begins (I've never read it myself) that mentions Lydia Littlejohn?

 

[Sci]

Babaganoosh said:

Timo said:
Also, a simultaneous President of Earth is always a possibility: Samuels could have had Littlejohn arguing politics with him off camera (except for Friedman's camera, that is). Especially if the relationship between the two were as ill-defined as in France. Or as ill-defined as the relationship in Finland has lately become, as the powers of the President are being stripped in favor of a more parliamentary setup.

I have no problem with United Earth being a 'hybrid' system. The President is head of State, and the Prime Minister is head of Government. Pretty cut-and-dried, really.

Although, could somebody enlighten me: Exactly what is the line in The Future Begins (I've never read it myself) that mentions Lydia Littlejohn?

There's a bit where Scotty is waiting to meet someone in the lobby of a space station that has a statue commemorating President Littlejohn for her leadership during the Earth-Romulan War

 

[MichaelS]

The passage in question runs thus:

Ross had asked him to wait at the Littlejohn Monument, a statue of the famous Earth President that had been erected near the central lake. On three sides of the monument, a number of comfortable benches invited passers-by to sit down and enjoy the view--and perhaps think about the time of the founding of the Federation, back when Lydia Littlejohn had been Earth's president.

And that's all there is.

 

[JD]

Sci said:

Babaganoosh said:

Timo said:
Also, a simultaneous President of Earth is always a possibility: Samuels could have had Littlejohn arguing politics with him off camera (except for Friedman's camera, that is). Especially if the relationship between the two were as ill-defined as in France. Or as ill-defined as the relationship in Finland has lately become, as the powers of the President are being stripped in favor of a more parliamentary setup.

I have no problem with United Earth being a 'hybrid' system. The President is head of State, and the Prime Minister is head of Government. Pretty cut-and-dried, really.

Although, could somebody enlighten me: Exactly what is the line in The Future Begins (I've never read it myself) that mentions Lydia Littlejohn?

There's a bit where Scotty is waiting to meet someone in the lobby of a space station that has a statue commemorating President Littlejohn for her leadership during the Earth-Romulan War

Hmm, she was active during the Earth-Romulan War? Maybe this will all be cleared up in next year's Romulan War trilogy then. :thumbsup: