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This is pretty good (beyond Nemesis)

I like the faith of Cardassia quite well.

It's life not a game. You fight a war, kill billions, there is a price to pay. Especially if you lose, you lose big. It's all gone, never to return. They will be annexed, or join the Federation, there is no other options. To bring them back would cheapen DS9 and make it pointless and unrealistic. Well done by the writers.
 
I like the faith of Cardassia quite well.

It's life not a game. You fight a war, kill billions, there is a price to pay. Especially if you lose, you lose big. It's all gone, never to return. They will be annexed, or join the Federation, there is no other options. To bring them back would cheapen DS9 and make it pointless and unrealistic. Well done by the writers.

Hmm, so Germany and Japan were reduced to third world nations, never to recover because that's the price they had to pay?:wtf: Did they HAVE to join the USA or did they chose to help set up an independent international organisation dedicated to the prevention of another world war, AND maintain their militaries in a defensive role?

Also the Cardassians didn't kill billions, the Founders and their Jem'Hadar pets murdered a billion Cardassians and laid waste to Cardassia Prime. The Founders started the war not the Cardassian Union. It is an act of cruelty to force another occupation on the Cardassian people or to drive them againist their will into a supposed democratic organisation like the UFP in order to make them pay for the crimes of a Government that doesn't exist anymore.
So millions must suffer even more just because 'your' side won, what a great notion:rolleyes:

And it's not 'unrealistic' to keep the Cardassians in Star Trek, like I said look at Germany, Japan and indeed Russia. They all recovered to a degree from a massive catastrophe and remain independent nation states.

It would NOT cheapen DS9, the Cardassians are an essential part of the drama and without them the series would be a lot weaker. Just look at the great post DW novels to see how well the Cardassians can be written.
I think that it's a silly sub plot from the writers that should have been dropped.

I too like the Faith of the Cardassians (the Oralian Way) but I doubt that's what you meant.

I must apologise for the Monologue/rant, I saw red and well...
Sorry everyone.
 
I like the faith of Cardassia quite well.

It's life not a game. You fight a war, kill billions, there is a price to pay. Especially if you lose, you lose big. It's all gone, never to return. They will be annexed, or join the Federation, there is no other options. To bring them back would cheapen DS9 and make it pointless and unrealistic. Well done by the writers.

Hmm, so Germany and Japan were reduced to third world nations, never to recover because that's the price they had to pay?:wtf: Did they HAVE to join the USA or did they chose to help set up an independent international organisation dedicated to the prevention of another world war, AND maintain their militaries in a defensive role?

Also the Cardassians didn't kill billions, the Founders and their Jem'Hadar pets murdered a billion Cardassians and laid waste to Cardassia Prime. The Founders started the war not the Cardassian Union. It is an act of cruelty to force another occupation on the Cardassian people or to drive them againist their will into a supposed democratic organisation like the UFP in order to make them pay for the crimes of a Government that doesn't exist anymore.
So millions must suffer even more just because 'your' side won, what a great notion:rolleyes:

And it's not 'unrealistic' to keep the Cardassians in Star Trek, like I said look at Germany, Japan and indeed Russia. They all recovered to a degree from a massive catastrophe and remain independent nation states.

It would NOT cheapen DS9, the Cardassians are an essential part of the drama and without them the series would be a lot weaker. Just look at the great post DW novels to see how well the Cardassians can be written.
I think that it's a silly sub plot from the writers that should have been dropped.

I too like the Faith of the Cardassians (the Oralian Way) but I doubt that's what you meant.

I must apologise for the Monologue/rant, I saw red and well...
Sorry everyone.


all the examples that you listed support my opinion, except your Russia example, what was that all about?

Japan's army was shut down after WWII and a token defense force created, under the command of an occupying army, and with objectives of never becoming a major power, never developing nuclear weapons etc.

Germany is a unique example because it was needed to be used against the Soviets, but they're still nowhere as powerful as they used to be.

And what suffering of Cardassians are you talking about? I said they should never be allowed to have their empire back, not they should be put into concentration camps.

I said DS9 would be cheapened, because here we have all these battle and people fighting for something, and then a few years later, it's all back to status quo. It would make DS9 look pointless.

If you think realistically Federation (or especially Romulans and Klingons) would let them build a fleet of Galor-class battleships, you're living in lala land. I know you're a fan of Cardies, but they should be gone as a major power. Bringing the Union back would be as rediculous as tribles having their own empire.
 
^ The Russia example was referring to the socio-economic collapse of the old Soviet Union, it's not quite the same as post Dominion Cardassia but it does show that a society can make a full recovery (or at least to a limited extent).

Japan is a major power, their economy was strong and they have recently began to update the JDFs. It's still one of the top industrial nation states (despite the economic downturn). I would not judge a major power solely though it's strength of arms.
As for Nuclear weapons? The Japanese have a cultural aversion to nuclear weapons for some reason.

Power structures change, the Germans became an economic and industrial powerhouse as a result of the second world war. It's not a world power because thankfully European colonialism is dead.

To get back to DS9, the Cardassian Union died at the end of the war anyway what I'm talking about is the society that will follow it.
The AQ powers were fighting for their freedom not to conquer Cardassia, they had to plan an invasion of Cardassian space because it was Dominion territory with all the bases and resources that they needed to persecute the war.
However the actual point you were making was about the status Quo, I don't think that will ever happen. The Cardassian homeworld is devastated, millions of soldiers have already died in the war and the Government of the Union has collapsed. There's no way in hell that the Cardassians will ever engage in empire building for the next few decades, if ever.
Their fleet (or what's left of it) would probaly be used to guard the core Cardassian systems with the exception of the formerly occupied worlds of the Union who would either join the federation or go independent.

I say the Federation quite deliberately as they seem to be the predominant power in the AQ. They proved aid to worlds outside their own territory (including many Klingon worlds no doubt) and I think they would have the final say in what happens to the cardassians.

The Klingon Empire suffered major casualties in their civil wars, the wars with the Cardassians and the Federation and of course during the DW itself. To be frank how THEY can remain a major power is a mystery also.
I think that there would be a short time protectorate of the ex-Union but I doubt that the AQ powers would be able to maintain it for long especially as the Cardassians would be too weak to start any wars for a very long time. So there would be no permanent need.

(And massaging the Klingon's pride is NOT a good reason to occupy Cardassian worlds IMO.)

The Cardassians no longer have the industrial base to build 'fleets' of 'Galors' but they would maintain a military to defend themselves from attack and pirate raids. The Cardassians would need to make a treaty with the allies allowing for this measure of course.

And Tribbles with their own Empire:lol:
 
I like the faith of Cardassia quite well.

It's life not a game. You fight a war, kill billions, there is a price to pay. Especially if you lose, you lose big. It's all gone, never to return. They will be annexed, or join the Federation, there is no other options. To bring them back would cheapen DS9 and make it pointless and unrealistic. Well done by the writers.

So you think the Treaty of Versailles was the best move that could have been made after WW1? Because that led directly to, uh, let me think... ah yes - the rise of the Nazi Party and WW2.
 
All of this is really interesting... particularly these four chunks:

A surprise guest at the wedding of Worf and Grilka is Data. With his upgrades at the Soong Foundation complete, Data requests that his commission in Starfleet be reactivated. While there are some initial questions because the Data persona is in the body once used by B-4, after Jean-Luc Picard, William T. Riker and several other current and former members of the Enterprise crew testify on Data's behalf, Starfleet Command agrees to reinstate Data. He is promoted to captain and assigned to supervise the completion of the Enterprise-E's refit.

On Ferenginar, protests rock the capital for two days after Grand Nagus Rom uses tax proceeds to start free schools. Many Ferengi see the free education as an assault on traditional values, and the demonstrations continue until Rom charges each protester ten slips of latnium for mass assembly without a proper permit. To get a permit to protest, Rom charges a bar of latnium. Proceeds are used to fund the educational system.

In addition to working to curb the rising hostilities between the Klingons and the Gorn, Federation diplomats are hard at work crafting a new pact between the Federation and the Cardassians. On Stardate 63976.74, the Cardassians sign a new treaty, in which they agree not to field a military or wage war. In exchange, the Federation agrees to provide aid to rebuild Cardassian cities and protection in the event of an invasion of Cardassian space. In response to the landmark agreement, the Bajoran coalition drops its request to prosecute Cardassians for war crimes. Many among the Bajorans and Cardassians hope that someday relations between them will be normalized.

On behalf of the Founders, Odo meets with Lamat'Ukan, First of the Jem'Hadar in the Alpha Quadrant. Odo asks the Jem'Hadar to return to the Gamma Quadrant with him, but Lamat'Ukan rejects Odo as a false god. "You wear the shape of our gods, but you do not have their spirit," Lamat'Ukan is reported to have said. "You are corrupted by your ... taste for the life of a solid. To follow you would be to sacrifice our souls. There would be no victory under your banner. Without victory, there is no life."

All of the stuff with the Romulans seems pretty plausible.

The bit with the Ferengi? That is so Grand Nagus Rom. :rommie:

I'm glad to see Worf remarry, and a proper Klingon woman no less. :klingon:

The bit with the Cardassians disarming is eyebrow-raising... they do seem to be following the Japanese post-WWII example there.

And do I smell a Jem'Hadar rebellion?

Most of this doesn't sound too bad, although a disarmed Cardassia won't last.
Obviously. There's only three ways that could end:

1) the situation the Feds are no doubt looking for; Cardassia-as-Federation member. Since Fed members don't appear to have militaries separate from Starfleet, it's only logical that they don't waste time building Galors, etc for the scrapyard. Somehow, this doesn't seem likely.

2) The Cardassians take the Fed aid, and as they rebuild/once they've rebuilt, they rearm in secret and probably end up declaring war on the Federation

3) Someone else - probably the Klingons, given recent history, and the tendency for expansion elsewhere in this - overrun the CU and take over while the Feds are busy elsewhere.

The one thing that doesn't sit well with me is "Captain Data." Picard and Riker must have a lot of pull with the brass, to get them to give a ship to an android body that happens to possess Data's memories and knowledge. One would hope he's been studied extensively to ensure he doesn't have any flaws that would compromise his abilities as Captain.

On the other hand, it is a nice touch that a fully-artificial life form can command a ship on a permanent basis. If there's nothing else Trek handled consistency, at least they stuck with the notion that artificial intelligence is still intelligence, and deserving of all the rights and privileges of biological life forms.

Well, "Captain Data" is following the Countdown movie prequel comics, which apparently form a part of this continuity (whether STO is incorporating Countdown, the other way around or if they were written in tandem I don't know.)

I'm fine with Captain Data. It makes sense as written, and has the virtue of fixing his idiotic 'death' in 'Nemesis.'

So where's Picard? Surely he wouldn't leave the Enterprise? Kirk told him not to, for one thing.

And where's Super Imperial Grand Admiral Tomalak?

Last we saw Tomalak was the Proconsul for the RSE.

As for Cardassia, SoM the most likely scenario (given previous narratives) is 2 inevitably followed by 3.
(which would be crap)

I'm hoping for 1, personally, given the three choices. A strong 'frenemy' Cardassian Union would be interesting - one that would be an unpredictable ally against the Klingons - or even a neutral power.

I'm also eager to see if Tomalak pops up and reforms the RSE after a certain... incident.

Interesting that they seem to be consciously avoiding references to Voyager and the Delta Quadrant in any way.
 
^ A neutral but friendly Cardassia would be the best bet. We all know how I feel about the Cardassians actually joining the Federation;)
 
I like the faith of Cardassia quite well.

It's life not a game. You fight a war, kill billions, there is a price to pay. Especially if you lose, you lose big. It's all gone, never to return. They will be annexed, or join the Federation, there is no other options. To bring them back would cheapen DS9 and make it pointless and unrealistic. Well done by the writers.

So you think the Treaty of Versailles was the best move that could have been made after WW1? Because that led directly to, uh, let me think... ah yes - the rise of the Nazi Party and WW2.

THANK YOU.

And thank you, Thor Damar, for making all of the other points I would've made!
 
I'm hoping for 1, personally, given the three choices. A strong 'frenemy' Cardassian Union would be interesting - one that would be an unpredictable ally against the Klingons - or even a neutral power.

I'm also eager to see if Tomalak pops up and reforms the RSE after a certain... incident.

Interesting that they seem to be consciously avoiding references to Voyager and the Delta Quadrant in any way.

Actually they did a supplemental additional before this that was based on an "interview" with Annika Hansen in 2385 and they talked a bit about the Borg and what has happened since voyager's return, basically a bit of foreshadowing for the Borg's return to the scene. We've also had the Doctor mentioned in earlier pieces to do with hologram rights, so Voyager has got a look in. Also a bit of a contradiction in the Hansen interview, they say that Borg haven't shown up since Voys return but in their 2382 section they refer to increased activity by the Borg in the Alpha Quadrant.
 
I like the faith of Cardassia quite well.

It's life not a game. You fight a war, kill billions, there is a price to pay. Especially if you lose, you lose big. It's all gone, never to return. They will be annexed, or join the Federation, there is no other options. To bring them back would cheapen DS9 and make it pointless and unrealistic. Well done by the writers.

So you think the Treaty of Versailles was the best move that could have been made after WW1? Because that led directly to, uh, let me think... ah yes - the rise of the Nazi Party and WW2.


There is no need for that arrogance. Germany post WWI and Cardassia post Dominion war are not even close. Why you would use that example is beyond me.
 
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