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Things you hate about DS9?

darthvincor said:
and ruining the Ferengi.
That was so annoyning, suddenly the Ferengi had become human. :(
But wasn't that sort of the original point of the Ferengi? They were supposed to be a stand-in for/caricature of 20th century humanity at its most greedy, venal, selfish worst to act as a contrast to the do-gooder 'new humans' of TNG. It wasn't so much that DS9 made the Ferengi more human, it made them more like 24th century humans. ;)
 
I agree about Terry Farrell being a horrible actress, about Dukat's fubaring, about the Ferengi's selling out (becoming pseudo-Human), and about the Dominion losing the war (they should have won).

I also cringe every time I see Lwaxana and I hate the Kira/Odo romance with a passion. blechh!

other than that, the show's good to go! :thumbsup:
 
1. I can't stand Kira/Odo. For me, this was just plain creepy. Especially since Rene is about twice Nana's age. Ewwww!

2. Ezri Dax - useless character that took up alot of time in season 7 - time that would better have been spent on the war. Plus, she whined alot.

3. Writing out Bareil and replacing him post-haste with Shakaar. Why? Bareil was interesting. Shakaar was the most boring character ever.

That's about it. I'd have liked to have seen Dukat execute Jadzia...but I don't care that she died a pointless death. It is war. LOTS of people die pointless deaths. And frankly, it was good to see a central character die a pointless death, just like most casualties of war die.
 
"Hate" is too strong. I don't like that Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night retroactively had Dukat in command of Terok Nor from the beginning, and that the station was now much older than it originally was. Felt too forced.

I also don't like Kira and Dukat somewhat warming up to each other in the fourth season. Nana Visitor was right. How close would you want to get to someone who's like Hitler?

PKTrekGirl said:
1. I can't stand Kira/Odo. For me, this was just plain creepy. Especially since Rene is about twice Nana's age. Ewwww!

[...]

3. Writing out Bareil and replacing him post-haste with Shakaar. Why? Bareil was interesting. Shakaar was the most boring character ever.

#1 answers #3. ;)
 
Apogeal Alpha01 said:


That the first season had more than a few of the worst stories of the entire series.

That there wasn't a season 8.

So did TNG S1 have some of it's worse stories, and I'll still rate DSN's S1 over TNG's S1.
 
payndz201 said:
darthvincor said:
and ruining the Ferengi.
That was so annoyning, suddenly the Ferengi had become human. :(
But wasn't that sort of the original point of the Ferengi? They were supposed to be a stand-in for/caricature of 20th century humanity at its most greedy, venal, selfish worst to act as a contrast to the do-gooder 'new humans' of TNG. It wasn't so much that DS9 made the Ferengi more human, it made them more like 24th century humans. ;)

Yeah, that may have been the point, but it was still not cool. I liked the Ferengi. For all their flaws, at least they were sincere.
Ah well, and like Quark said, at least Ferengi civilization continues to exist in his bar. :)
 
Well like all Civilisations the Ferengi civilisation had to evolve at a certain point, go back over a hundred years ago and women couldn't vote, go back over two hundred years and slavery was legal. All we say was the beginings of that revolution, which had already occured on Earth centuries beforehand.
 
Lord Garth said:
PKTrekGirl said:
1. I can't stand Kira/Odo. For me, this was just plain creepy. Especially since Rene is about twice Nana's age. Ewwww!

[...]

3. Writing out Bareil and replacing him post-haste with Shakaar. Why? Bareil was interesting. Shakaar was the most boring character ever.

#1 answers #3. ;)

Ah! Okay! So what you are saying is that they had to kill off Bariel to make way for (ewwwww!) Odo...and they just stuck Shakaar in there to mark time or something?

I mean, I can buy Kira and Shakaar splitting up to make room for Odo as Shakaar was exceedinly dull...but I could never in a bizillion years buy Kira leaving BAREIL for Odo. Bareil was too perfect for her - they had too much in common.

So if the writers were just dead set on hooking her up with Odo, then there would have been no choice but to kill off Bareil at some point.

Still...that doesn't explain the existence of Shakaar...or why they bothered with him at all. *AND* it presumes that as early as the middle of season 3 (when Life Support aired) they knew they were gonna put Odo and Kira together. And I'm not at all convinced they knew what they wanted to do with Kira and Odo that early. I thought they decided to do that much later...

Was there any off-screen reason they killed off Bareil so early? Maybe that had something to do with the existence of Shakaar...
 
PKTrekGirl said:
Still...that doesn't explain the existence of Shakaar...or why they bothered with him at all. *AND* it presumes that as early as the middle of season 3 (when Life Support aired) they knew they were gonna put Odo and Kira together. And I'm not at all convinced they knew what they wanted to do with Kira and Odo that early. I thought they decided to do that much later...

Was there any off-screen reason they killed off Bareil so early? Maybe that had something to do with the existence of Shakaar...

The problem here is a "Will they or won't they?" I think they were thinking about getting Kira and Odo together but they decided to take it season by season. If you know you have a series that's going to last six or seven seasons, then the writers can space out progress in a way other series can't.

Season 3 - Odo realizes his feelings for Kira in Heart of Stone, which just happens to be the episode following Life Support. This becomes part of Odo's internal conflict. Should be have a relationship with Kira or not? Shakaar is introduced in an episode of the same name, to throw in a monkey wrench, externalize the conflict, and slow things down.

Season 4 - Crossfire uses what was put into place the previous season. Kira is in love with Shakaar and it drives Odo nuts as the feelings he tried to suppress resurface.

Season 5 - Kira finds out about Odo's feelings, adding to the conflict another layer. By the end of the season, they decide to shelve those feelings to focus on the war.

Season 6 - The writers have had it with pushing things off, the series is almost over, and they finally decide to do what they've spread out for three years and have them fall in love.

How did the idea originate? I suspect they wanted to make Odo experience what it means to be a solid by having him fall in love and they thought it would mean more if it were with a main character. With only two main female characters it came down to a choice between one who went through the Occupation and one who didn't.
 
PKTrekGirl said:
Was there any off-screen reason they killed off Bareil so early? Maybe that had something to do with the existence of Shakaar...
They had no particular plan to kill Bareil off. The storyline for "Life Support" was in place already. The story had some random guy dying and being rebuilt with a robot brain. They decided later that it would have a greater effect if it was somebody we already knew, and went with Bareil. That's the only reason he was killed.

The writers later regretted it, which is why they put Kira with Shakaar in an attempt to recreate that dynamic. Shakaar was boring, so they killed it altogether.

Lord Garth said:
Season 3 - Odo realizes his feelings for Kira in Heart of Stone, which just happens to be the episode following Life Support.
No, he first expressed it in "Heart of Stone," but he knew at the very least in "The Collaborator" and probably all the way back to "Necessary Evil."

How did the idea originate? I suspect they wanted to make Odo experience what it means to be a solid by having him fall in love and they thought it would mean more if it were with a main character.
I'm fairly sure it was just a development of the relationship that had been set up between them since the beginning. I don't think they set up the unrequited love thing with the express purpose of exploring anything about Odo. I don't think it was that calculated. He just fell in love with her. Then they saw where it went.
 
Ohh ohh ohh!!

Here go some of my "superficial" reasons why I hate DS9:

1. They tried hard to make "realistic" aliens, but to the common person most alien makeup looks silly and in some extremes disgusting. It was totally unnecessary, just look at all the Stargates and their successed (and on that same note, Farscape and it's failures).

1a. At the same time, they tried to give "substance" to Alien cultures, but while doing that they pretty much made them "Human". I mean most Cardassians are portrayed as "deceitful humans" with weird shaped necks. Only hardcore sci-fi enthusiasts are going to take characters that act 100% human yet look 100% goofy with any seriousness.

2. The attempt to make DS9 a "WWII" style war. This series just for the sake of the series conveniently "forgot" about a lot of the magical Trek Tech to make its stories sort of work. It didn't help that most Federation personel looked like a bunch of Civilians in Pyjamas with Phaser Guns and acted like such. No ground military strategy whatsoever, no camouflage, no imaginings of what kind of advantages and disadvantages they weapons would have on ground style combat.

3. Having everyone at each other's throats. Kira was probably the worst for this, and yes, I too hated how they wrote the character like she could beat up guys 3 times her size. It's just stupid.

4. The awful awful romances. Particularly Worf and Jadzia. What is it with Trek writers that they always have to pair ugly ass men with hot women? Almost like they are writing out their fanwank ideas in there it seems. Why not be original and show a handsome hunk with a not so pretty woman (a human with a ferengi girl perhaps?) hah, they wouldn't have the balls to do it. Odo and Kira was pretty bad too. It seems like the bulk of the romance time is spent with everyone *lovingly* staring into each other's eyes. Go watch Smallville and you'll see what I'm talking about.

5. Why does Sisko always sound like he's pissed off? This REALLY turned me off the show.

6. Odo goes from being a superbeing to some kind spineless jellyfish after half of the series. I clearly remember that episode with Garak where he is getting tortured by stopping his regeneration cycle. Not only is he totally powerless, but like a little crying girl he confesses everything that Garak wants to know, and to add insult to injury, he doesn't even do ANYTHING to Garak afterward??? If that had been me I would have shot some nice phaser holes into Garak the second he gave me the chance.

7. The sillyness of having the Dominion be a race that is only "slightly" more powerful than the Federation, and they require alliances in the Alpha Quadrant. Everyone takes sides and just dukes it out.

8. The whole take on religion: Bajorans: "Well, we know our gods are not omnipotent, we know they only really have power inside the wormhole, but we still worship them because it's our tradition" Federation: "Well we respect your beliefs but we still think you are dumb, and those prophets aren't even omnipotent. We can easily kill them with chronoton radiation if we want"

9. Shall we get into Jadzia? Being a bitchy princess does not equate to a "strong" woman. It got even worse when they had her wrestling Worf, but then again Worf gets beat up by everyone.

10. And #10, the fact that the BEST battle scenes in Trek were done on THIS show and not TNG really really burns me!!!
 
I didn't care for:

1. Making the oft mention and quasi-mysterious Breen into Princess Leia in Boushh disguise.

2. Jadzia's lame death. Simply having her die in ship-to-ship egagement would've be straightforward and "realistic".

3. Sisko's prophet heritage and destiny...Trek used to be about "us"..relatable people with the capacity for better ourselves, etc, not destined heroes.

4. One-sided battles...mostly early on...the leftover legacy of TNG. That Romulan-Cardassian fleet that didn't seem to do anything but die when Jem Hadar ship appears.

5. Covenant. Just a forced effort to have one last Kira-Dukat episode.

6. Prophet and Lace. ick.

7. Alexander.

8. Kurn's fate.

9. The increasingly silly time wasted in the Mirror Universe. When the Terran resistance made a copy of the Defiant...that killed it.

10. All the time travel episodes.
 
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Odo "sided" with the solids because of his "love" for Kira.

Please. So what, that means he would have told the solids to fuck off and die if he wasn't enfatuated with fucking one of them?
 
GalaxyX said:
1a. At the same time, they tried to give "substance" to Alien cultures, but while doing that they pretty much made them "Human". I mean most Cardassians are portrayed as "deceitful humans" with weird shaped necks. Only hardcore sci-fi enthusiasts are going to take characters that act 100% human yet look 100% goofy with any seriousness.
I'd much rather have aliens that can't be boiled down to just one word, personally. I don't think either Cardassians or Bajorans were anything like Humans. They both had clearly different cultural heritages and ways of thinking, and yet neither were just always spouting about "logic" or "honour." Far preferable, to my mind.

3. Having everyone at each other's throats. Kira was probably the worst for this.
That's one of the things that attracted me to the show most, after five years of dull colourless characters on TNG. Good on them.

5. Why does Sisko always sound like he's pissed off?
Because he is pissed off. About a great many things, more than any other Trek commander has ever had to handle. I'm not surprised he got a little testy.

I clearly remember that episode with Garak where he is getting tortured by stopping his regeneration cycle. Not only is he totally powerless, but like a little crying girl he confesses everything that Garak wants to know, and to add insult to injury, he doesn't even do ANYTHING to Garak afterward?
Then I would say you either misunderstood or misremember the scene. Odo was most emphatically not mewling like a little girl. He did not confess everything to Garak. That is totally the opposite of what happened. Even while Odo was suffering, he was the one taunting Garak. Garak was the one who begged Odo to tell him something, even a lie, just so that he could stop torturing him. And not in a "you're making me do this" way either - Garak was just as upset over the whole thing as Odo was. And Odo forgave him because he knew exactly where Garak was coming from - an exile desperately wishing to go back to his people, but even given the chance, can't quite bring himself to do it because he knows they're wrong.

7. The sillyness of having the Dominion be a race that is only "slightly" more powerful than the Federation, and they require alliances in the Alpha Quadrant.
The Dominion weren't slightly more powerful - they were massively more powerful. At first, Cardassia was nothing more than a staging ground for them - not a necessity by any means. The Feds pulled off a neat trick thanks to Sisko's relationship with the Prophets which cut off the Dominion from their hugely superior resources in the Gamma Quadrant. If it weren't for that, the Federation would have been toast.

See, this is what annoys me: Valid differences of opinion are one thing. Complaints based on an incorrect reading of the text are quite another.
 
^ then this is a good thread where some of those incorrect (or not) assumptions can be discussed and clarified. nyet? ;)
 
lvsxy808 said:
PKTrekGirl said:
Was there any off-screen reason they killed off Bareil so early? Maybe that had something to do with the existence of Shakaar...
They had no particular plan to kill Bareil off. The storyline for "Life Support" was in place already. The story had some random guy dying and being rebuilt with a robot brain. They decided later that it would have a greater effect if it was somebody we already knew, and went with Bareil. That's the only reason he was killed.

The writers later regretted it, which is why they put Kira with Shakaar in an attempt to recreate that dynamic. Shakaar was boring, so they killed it altogether.

Okay...I can buy this answer. I wish they hadn't picked Bareil...but I'm trying to think of a secondary character active at that time in the series who could have been an alternative...and none really springs to mind.

And yeah...the Kira/Bareil dynamic was good. Probably the best 'dynamic' of any 'ship in DS9.

But as is usual with just about any Trek 'ship....they fracked it up. :guffaw:
 
Hmm.....this is HARD! Well, here goes:

1. They never made a DS9 theatrical film...however, judging by the quality of the TNG films, this might be a good thing!

2. Most Trek fans (including this one first-run) never gave the series a fair chance

That's it.
 
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