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Things Trek in general could have done better?

And yet so many people on here complain that there should have been more character conflict between Maquis and Starfleet crew. When this angsty Anakin behavior shows up on screen, it's seen(and rightly so) as unprofessional. Well...B'elanna can be unprofessional.

She also has a character arc. So does Tom. They also have one together that was planned from before the show started! The doctor also has an arc. Seven has an arc. Neelix even has an arc.

We're you expecting every character on the show to each have their own personal epic scale hero's journey?

You say characters are written inconsistently...I say prove it. And even you can find something that seems inconsistent about a characters personality, prove that those supposed inconsistencies aren't found also in TNG, DS9, and ENT. All of these shows shared writers, directors, and producers.

Lastly, I can think of one person with twice the angst of B'elanna Torres. His initials are RDM
I just have to chuckle when people complain about the Maquis-Starfleet tension. They seem to forget, Caretaker, Repression, Learning Curve.

Really what did they want? An actual mutiny? The whole point is that's it's Star Trek Odyssey.

Also IU a lot of the Maquis had a Starfleet or at least Federation background and so sensibly reintegrated fairly easily with a few exceptions.

Tom and B'lanna have character arcs, Seven and the Doc have character arcs and yes even Janeway has a character arc.

Voyager wasn't without its flaws and but to say it was so bad as its detractors make it out to be is grossly unfair to the writers, cast, and fans.
 
That would imply the showrunners had an idea of where to take the character from the outset while ...

BWAHAHAHA! You're talking about Voyager, right? :rommie:

Sorry. I love Voyager as a guilty pleasure and I was even part of a Voyager heavy online forum during it's run. But that doesn't stop me from ripping on it. Showrunners knowing where to take anything in the show - except that Voyager would get home (and probably run into the Borg on the way) - is beyond my capacity to comprehend.
 
I just have to chuckle when people complain about the Maquis-Starfleet tension. They seem to forget, Caretaker, Repression, Learning Curve.

Really what did they want? An actual mutiny? The whole point is that's it's Star Trek Odyssey.

Yeah, I think we wanted what we saw all through BSG. People tired, worn down, not listening to their superiors, Maquis continually bucking the Starfleet rules and regulations to the point that it directly affected the ship for a long period of time. Maybe an entire season like VOY: Pathfinder.

But, again, can't do that if we have to reset the show at the end of every episode. Every Maquis problem was resolved at the end of the episode.

I am in disagreement with NinjaRaiden over the treatment of B'Elanna's character. She seems pretty internally consitent to me. Growth? Oh, I'll agree about a slow growth. But she's consistently portrayed as a stubborn hothead prone to solving her problems through violence. Stereotypical Klingon. What the lowest common denominator expects.

Janeway, on the other hand, was inconsistent to the point some accuse the character of being bipolar.
 
Actually, none of the writers or producers who worked on DS9 went over to Enterprise, and Berman and Braga were the only ones from TNG involved with Enterprise.
I'm saying that all four shows shared many of the creative team. Yes, by the time of Enterprise, most of the Trek writers had left to do other things, but Berman was a producer on all four shows. Braga was a writer/producer on 3 shows. There are directors who directed episodes in ALL of the shows. And since we're talking about Voyager specifically, writers/producers/directors who worked on TNG, DS9, and ENT.

I do get a little defensive when people throw out tired old generalizations. And that comment about Ron Moore. Has anyone ever been in a BSG forum? The most comment complaint I hear about BSG is that the producer(s) had NO idea where it was going after season 1 and that they were just making it up as they go.

We don't know why RM left Voyager. DS9 finished and he was asked to come aboard the Voyager writing staff. His former peer(Braga) was now show runner(Season 6) and they had disagreements. Moore wrote two episodes and left. Then years later he made public comments complaining about the direction of the show(in an unprofessional manner.)

Ira Behr can be quite jerk too. When Michael Pillar was writing Insurrection, and having trouble, he asked his old pal Ira S. Behr to come out for his advice. Behr meets him and looks it over, then says "This is dogs***. Absolute crap! This F***ing sucks. Then he left. He's also publicly complained about his co-workers on TNG, where he worked for one season.

These guys are like the Gary Kurtz of Trek, except they actually had careers afterwards. They're thrown up on pedestals while others are raked through the Mudd.

Berman and Braga apologize to "unhappy" fans for not meeting their idealized expectations.

Behr and Moore blame others and throw them under the bus.
 
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Janeway, on the other hand, was inconsistent to the point some accuse the character of being bipolar.
This is what I'm talking about. prove it. Whenever someone says "Sisko is all over the place" the response is "Oh, Avery Brooks is just an eccentric guy. An artist...you know."
 
Yeah, I think we wanted what we saw all through BSG. People tired, worn down, not listening to their superiors, Maquis continually bucking the Starfleet rules and regulations to the point that it directly affected the ship for a long period of time. Maybe an entire season like VOY: Pathfinder.

But, again, can't do that if we have to reset the show at the end of every episode. Every Maquis problem was resolved at the end of the episode.

I am in disagreement with NinjaRaiden over the treatment of B'Elanna's character. She seems pretty internally consitent to me. Growth? Oh, I'll agree about a slow growth. But she's consistently portrayed as a stubborn hothead prone to solving her problems through violence. Stereotypical Klingon. What the lowest common denominator expects.

Janeway, on the other hand, was inconsistent to the point some accuse the character of being bipolar.
I don't want BSG grittiness and in case you forgot B'lanna rejected and hated her heritage for like 98% of the show.
 
That would involve a lot of conscious worldbuilding and that isn't something you can do on a tv show.

It really doesn't. It's just a matter of tossing in ``typically'' or ``recently'' or so on before describing the gimmick of the Species of the Week. And sometimes tossing in a line about how they aren't always this way. It doesn't even need to be thought out; it's just mentioning that of course the whole species is more diverse than the two guest stars we have this episode.
 
BWAHAHAHA! You're talking about Voyager, right? :rommie:

Sorry. I love Voyager as a guilty pleasure and I was even part of a Voyager heavy online forum during it's run. But that doesn't stop me from ripping on it. Showrunners knowing where to take anything in the show - except that Voyager would get home (and probably run into the Borg on the way) - is beyond my capacity to comprehend.
I have a big soft spot for Voyager myself. It was the first Trek show I saw when it was still running new episodes whereas the others were all in reruns (or had just gone off the air in DS9's case). I don't personally hold any of the writers on a pedestal just because they worked on one of my favorite shows. They've all done some good stories and they've all done some crappy stories. Ira Behr did a lot for DS9 and he gave us the craptastic Captain's Holiday from TNG. And let us not forget such classic DS9 episodes such as Profit and Lace and Let He Who is Without Sin. I actually applaud Berman and Braga for finally realizing there was a problem and handing the reigns of Enterprise over to some new people for the second half of its run. I also know the network played a large part in it. They allocate the budget the show is given and if they don't want to spend the money then that puts a stop to any potential stories they can tell. Year of Hell was supposed to be a full season until UPN made them trim it down to a simple two-parter.

I'm also not saying that the show should have been devoid of any conflict on the ship. That was the whole point of the Maquis being on board in the first place (early TNG is a great example of what happens when you leave the writers with absolutely nothing to work with). It just doesn't work when the writers completely forget they're even there until a random episode thrusts them into the spotlight. As far as B'Elanna goes she had the right to have character growth herself just as much as Worf had to get over being torn between two cultures on TNG, but I myself hold the senior staff to a level of accountability and professionalism. Being stranded in the Delta Quadrant means Janeway can't just call up Starfleet Command for a replacement--I get that--but no captain would take as much crap from a senior officer on their ship and not punish them for it. Well, not that the Starfleet crew was any better sometimes. Just look at Tuvok being a huge jerk in Learning Curve. Thankfully they started up her relationship with Tom that gave them much needed character development and one of my favorite VOY episodes: Barge of the Dead.

Finally if we're going over inconsistencies then just watch any episode that centers heavily on Janeway. One episode she's reading the Prime Directive like it's the infallible gospel of Starfleet and just two or three episodes later she has no problem breaking every violation in the book so long as it gets her what she wants. She won't trade weapons technology with other races because it's against the PD. That's great. Torturing a member of Ransom's crew with threats of death if he doesn't speak up? Not so great. She says the crew is her family who she would do anything for as any captain would. Later the ship gets stuck in a void and she pouts in her quarters without speaking to anyone for weeks leaving Chakotay to do everything. Kate Mulgrew herself said she believed Janeway suffered from an undiagnosed mental disorder such as Bipolar to explain the inconsistent writing. I almost wish they had said she was suffering from Bipolar or depression. The weight of getting her crew home after seven long years and all of the people they've lost weighing heavily on her shoulders. The depression setting in as she stares out the window at nothingness knowing she can't show any sign of these lingering doubts in front of the crew. The sight of the void makes her wonder if she has failed the whole crew or even worse, broken her promise of getting them home. It would perfectly explain why she jumps at the chance for a promotion upon their return to Earth where she gets a comfortable desk job at Starfleet Command instead of keeping up command of a ship. Sadly we don't get that; only odd continuity and sometimes very poor writing so they can hit the Status Quo.
For someone else let's looks at Tom who has most of his episodes deal with how hotheaded and rebellious he is. He learns a lesson by the end and the whole thing is recycled for a future episode only with a different premise. Seven seasons of TNG showed how much Data could exceed his status as an artificial lifeform by showing him win his rights (TWICE!) as an individual, taking command of a ship, saving the Enterprise god knows how many times, and finally got emotions without going insane or killing anyone. Yet when we get to the Doctor's story in VOY no one in Starfleet ever considers doing the same for him. By the time of Author, Author where he's in a hearing going over his own individual rights he has saved his creator's life, saved the lives of his crew multiple times from alien ailments, become a celebrity for his singing, written stories, taken up several hobbies of his own choosing, learned to dream, become a backup command officer, and no doubt had his reports added to Starfleet's medical database. Not a single person brings up Data at this hearing to help the Doc's case. It's like Starfleet forgot that Data ever existed. That or the writers did which wouldn't surprise since they forgot about their own characters.

If someone wants technical inconsistencies then look no further at Voyager's compliment of shuttles or how it fluctuates in how much they can use the replicator or how the ship can fix itself from week to week. For that matter they should have run out of torpedoes in the second or third season.
 
I always felt they replicated the necessary parts and traded for whatever materials they were lacking just off screen.

Janeway is all about enthusiastic exploration in Caretaker(and Relativity) by Endgame Admiral Janeway wishes she had avoided contact with aliens and zipped her crew home ASAP.
 
I think Trek could have done a better job of portraying non-humanoid (but non-Godlike) aliens.

TOS had some really interesting examples
Horta
Medusans
Melkots
Providers
Tholians
Zetar Lights
Excalbians
Fried-Egg Single Cell Things

TNG seemed to have a few:
Silicon Creatures (ugly bags of mostly water)
Conspiracy Creatures
Sheliack

It seemed like as time went on, the creativity and imagination in these truly different alien beings started to fall off.
 
The Traveler was an interesting alien in TNG. I agree that most interesting aliens were shown in TOS and then we saw virtually different variations of humanity in "mainstream" aliens. Angry humans, calm humans, smart humans, greedy humans. "Fascinating"
 
I have a big soft spot for Voyager myself. It was the first Trek show I saw when it was still running new episodes whereas the others were all in reruns (or had just gone off the air in DS9's case). I don't personally hold any of the writers on a pedestal just because they worked on one of my favorite shows. They've all done some good stories and they've all done some crappy stories. Ira Behr did a lot for DS9 and he gave us the craptastic Captain's Holiday from TNG. And let us not forget such classic DS9 episodes such as Profit and Lace and Let He Who is Without Sin. I actually applaud Berman and Braga for finally realizing there was a problem and handing the reigns of Enterprise over to some new people for the second half of its run. I also know the network played a large part in it. They allocate the budget the show is given and if they don't want to spend the money then that puts a stop to any potential stories they can tell. Year of Hell was supposed to be a full season until UPN made them trim it down to a simple two-parter.

I'm also not saying that the show should have been devoid of any conflict on the ship. That was the whole point of the Maquis being on board in the first place (early TNG is a great example of what happens when you leave the writers with absolutely nothing to work with). It just doesn't work when the writers completely forget they're even there until a random episode thrusts them into the spotlight. As far as B'Elanna goes she had the right to have character growth herself just as much as Worf had to get over being torn between two cultures on TNG, but I myself hold the senior staff to a level of accountability and professionalism. Being stranded in the Delta Quadrant means Janeway can't just call up Starfleet Command for a replacement--I get that--but no captain would take as much crap from a senior officer on their ship and not punish them for it. Well, not that the Starfleet crew was any better sometimes. Just look at Tuvok being a huge jerk in Learning Curve. Thankfully they started up her relationship with Tom that gave them much needed character development and one of my favorite VOY episodes: Barge of the Dead.

Finally if we're going over inconsistencies then just watch any episode that centers heavily on Janeway. One episode she's reading the Prime Directive like it's the infallible gospel of Starfleet and just two or three episodes later she has no problem breaking every violation in the book so long as it gets her what she wants. She won't trade weapons technology with other races because it's against the PD. That's great. Torturing a member of Ransom's crew with threats of death if he doesn't speak up? Not so great. She says the crew is her family who she would do anything for as any captain would. Later the ship gets stuck in a void and she pouts in her quarters without speaking to anyone for weeks leaving Chakotay to do everything. Kate Mulgrew herself said she believed Janeway suffered from an undiagnosed mental disorder such as Bipolar to explain the inconsistent writing. I almost wish they had said she was suffering from Bipolar or depression. The weight of getting her crew home after seven long years and all of the people they've lost weighing heavily on her shoulders. The depression setting in as she stares out the window at nothingness knowing she can't show any sign of these lingering doubts in front of the crew. The sight of the void makes her wonder if she has failed the whole crew or even worse, broken her promise of getting them home. It would perfectly explain why she jumps at the chance for a promotion upon their return to Earth where she gets a comfortable desk job at Starfleet Command instead of keeping up command of a ship. Sadly we don't get that; only odd continuity and sometimes very poor writing so they can hit the Status Quo.
For someone else let's looks at Tom who has most of his episodes deal with how hotheaded and rebellious he is. He learns a lesson by the end and the whole thing is recycled for a future episode only with a different premise. Seven seasons of TNG showed how much Data could exceed his status as an artificial lifeform by showing him win his rights (TWICE!) as an individual, taking command of a ship, saving the Enterprise god knows how many times, and finally got emotions without going insane or killing anyone. Yet when we get to the Doctor's story in VOY no one in Starfleet ever considers doing the same for him. By the time of Author, Author where he's in a hearing going over his own individual rights he has saved his creator's life, saved the lives of his crew multiple times from alien ailments, become a celebrity for his singing, written stories, taken up several hobbies of his own choosing, learned to dream, become a backup command officer, and no doubt had his reports added to Starfleet's medical database. Not a single person brings up Data at this hearing to help the Doc's case. It's like Starfleet forgot that Data ever existed. That or the writers did which wouldn't surprise since they forgot about their own characters.

If someone wants technical inconsistencies then look no further at Voyager's compliment of shuttles or how it fluctuates in how much they can use the replicator or how the ship can fix itself from week to week. For that matter they should have run out of torpedoes in the second or third season.
Those aren't inconsistencies. Nor are they different than any other trek show. Picard treated the prime directive with an almost religious fervor, even willing to allow civilizations to go extinct, yet he broke it 7 times?

Sisko doesn't even mess with the prime directive, he just straight up breaks real laws INCLUDING but not limited to international treaties,when it's convenient for him. He gets furious with Worf for attempting ritual suicide with his brother, then orders Worf to get rid of Gowron. He goes from happy to mad to sad to laughing. Characters in DS9 go through crazy experiences on the regular and they're never ever mentioned again

Janeway falling into a depression during a 2 year trip through nothingness isn't bipolar. She's a wartime leader. The action is where she thrives. Chakotay is a peacetime leader.

My point is, Although these shows follow different stories with different actors and sets...thus a different tone, they all have the exact same format/same creators.
 
I arrived here by executing the google search "they could have given professor Moriarty an android body." Curious to see if anyone else shares that sentiment. Also, I have to say that all the points that 2takesfrakes mentioned, I agree with and have often contemplated.

Here's another big one: there are no internal cameras to be found on the Enterprise, anywhere. Recall the episode where Riker brought back the game that "programs people." At the part where Wesley Crusher was being chased all over the Enterprise, sensors alone were relied on to track him down. Remember the part where he set up that automated intermittent phaser blast as a decoy? If there were cameras that wound't have worked. So, I have to LOL at the prospect of cameras not being used in the future.
 
I arrived here by executing the google search "they could have given professor Moriarty an android body." Curious to see if anyone else shares that sentiment. Also, I have to say that all the points that 2takesfrakes mentioned, I agree with and have often contemplated.

Here's another big one: there are no internal cameras to be found on the Enterprise, anywhere. Recall the episode where Riker brought back the game that "programs people." At the part where Wesley Crusher was being chased all over the Enterprise, sensors alone were relied on to track him down. Remember the part where he set up that automated intermittent phaser blast as a decoy? If there were cameras that wound't have worked. So, I have to LOL at the prospect of cameras not being used in the future.
They only have cameras when the plot requires them.
 
Bry_Sinclair said it first but I'm going to say it again because it always bugs the crap out of me. Better and more realistic depictions of women. I didn't have any problem with Seven of Nine or Deanna Troi's outfits when I was a teenager because of the obvious reasons, but now all I can think of whenever I see episodes of Voyager is how uncomfortable Jeri Ryan must have been wearing that getup week after week, what with the high heels and the corset underneath the catsuit. B'Elanna acted like a child who would throw a tantrum whenever she didn't get her way. Jennifer Lien was brought on as Kes because of her large bust following her pregnancy and was promptly fired when they shrank. The first female captain to be the main star of a series suffered from inconsistent writing making Janeway look insane. Deanna Troi wears nothing but leotards and a dress with a stupid cutout for hear cleavage for five seasons and doesn't get to do anything meaningful until TNG was almost over. Tasha Yar is created to capitalize on the success of Ripley and Vasquez from Aliens yet she's on a show that was deliberately setup under the idea that the Federation has no internal conflict and bows down to every single threat that comes their way rendering her completely useless. Tasha was pretty much just set dressing even more than Troi by way of hardly ever getting to speak. The only notes written about Dr. Crusher's character during creation was how she's Wesley's mother and the attraction she has to Picard. Nothing about her interests or goals. Just the relation she has to the men of the show.

This ties into my second issue which is the handling of romance on the shows. Both Crusher and Troi are stated to have an attraction for a fellow main character, but we as an audience know nothing will happen to motivate that relationship becoming something more than just close friends because the writers don't want to close off options for potential love interests. To me it gets even worse when they would have a romantic plot for a guest star because, again, we the audience know they'll be gone by the next episode never to be mentioned again (with only one or two exceptions). It makes the whole idea of having a romantic story utterly pointless. My absolute favorite example of this is Chakotay and Seven. They get together in the very last episode of Voyager with no build up or explanation. It's as if the writers didn't have enough to fill out this two-parter and had to give them something to do. To go along with that is how it took 50 years to finally get a depiction of a gay character after having Paramount promise it for years only to chicken out at the last minute. Here's hoping they hold to their promise on Discovery.

This goes into more detail than I was going to, but I agree wholeheartedly.

I would add that equality should have been depicted a little better. We had Janeway (poorly written, at least in the first season) as a Captain and main character, but in the two series I paid any attention to (TOS, TNG), women were not given many leadership roles nor taken as seriously as their male counterparts, by the other characters. NOR the writers.

I more blame TNG for this as, while TOS was revolutionary, there were certain things in the 60s that you just could not portray on network TV (Remember Number One? The Executives told Roddenberry that the audience wouldn't accept a woman as second in command. And Roddenberry knew pretty much from the beginning that George Takei was gay (as did most of the crew other than Shatner), but Roddenberry let him know that society was just not ready for that, yet.).

TNG DID attempt to tackle LGBT issues in one episode, but I think the audience--and maybe even the writers--perceived it the wrong way. "The Outcast" delved deeper into LGBT issues than Trek ever had before, but I have two beefs. The first is that Johnathan Frakes was right, it would have had more impact if Soren had been played by a male. Second, the episode had nothing to do with homosexuality as it was filmed at all. It represented transgenderism, plain and simple.

--Edit

I need to add that the franchise lost me when it took the dark turn that it did. I wish they'd maintained Roddenberry's vision of a bright future. Conflict is necessary to any story, but it lost a lot of its message in later series.
 
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Janeway falling into a depression during a 2 year trip through nothingness isn't bipolar. She's a wartime leader. The action is where she thrives. Chakotay is a peacetime leader.

Interesting observation. Still more so if you consider their backgrounds. Janeway originally is a science officer. Chakotay came from the Maquis. From those backgrounds, one could have expected their predispositions to be the other way around:)
 
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DS9-more Romulan characters
Voy-Vaadvaur arc, Voth character
ENT-Romulan war
TNG-nothing I can think of

More organians, more Horta, and so on.
 
Less dependence on monotype behavioral characteristics for alien races. It was OK, when emotionless Vulcans were the only example, but by the time we also had greedy Ferengis, duplicitous Romulans, shifty Cardassians, bloodthirsty Klingons, & robotic Borg trampling all over every episode, it wore very thin
 
Less dependence on monotype behavioral characteristics for alien races. It was OK, when emotionless Vulcans were the only example, but by the time we also had greedy Ferengis, duplicitous Romulans, shifty Cardassians, bloodthirsty Klingons, & robotic Borg trampling all over every episode, it wore very thin
The whole point of the Borg is that they're race is a collective hivemind, so naturally they are going to by very definition express a monotype behavioural characteristic for their entire race.
 
The whole point of the Borg is that they're race is a collective hivemind, so naturally they are going to by very definition express a monotype behavioural characteristic for their entire race.
I'm not saying some of it wasn't valid, just that collectively it made the show a little limited, when every other story has Rules of Acquisition this & Klingon honor that or Vulcan logic yada yada yada. Add in Data's emotionlessness & it was just too much after a while. It felt like Humans were the only well rounded species... At least the only one they explored regularly. There really was no sensible reason why Seven had to remain bereft of humanity

It's weak writing if the only way you can have character growth is by first robbing them of character
 
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